Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 My name is Jennifer Grossman. Please call me Jag. I am the of the Atla Society and am honored to have our Kelly here with us today discuss cardinal values and what in. So, David, I'll let you take it from here.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 Okay, thanks, Ja. Um, I wanted to, um, talk about a, a very important concept in the objectiveness ethics. Uh, the idea of cardinal values. And, um, let me just by way of a bit of background in ethical theory. Uh, objectiveism is what is known as a teleological ethic. That is, it's based on certain fundamental goals and values. And from those fundamental goals and values, we derive, um, the principles of acting, the virtues and subsidiary values and so forth. And so it's a means end, um, uh, structure, uh, in the values, and that's familiar to everybody. I mean, you know, you, you have, you have a goal. You various means you can choose to, to achieve the goal. Um, for example, uh, slightly advertising example. Um, if you want to go to the TAs Gala, that's your goal. You value it, um, as the best use of your time and money.
Speaker 1 00:01:31 And then you have the means you register, pay, make, travel arrangements, et cetera. Those are the means. So we have this, um, this is a pattern that we follow throughout her life at any level and in any action. Ethics is the same. Only it defines, um, means and ends at a much higher level abstraction. And in particular, um, we draw distinction between value and virtue. Values are goals, ends purposes that you pursue, things that you, that you value. And, uh, virtues are the PA principles for acting in such a way as to achieve those values. So, um, most of the objectives, ethics, as Aran presented it, and as most commentators have presented, it focuses on virtue. Um, there's somewhat less discussion about value, and in particular about cardinal values. Those are the term cardinal, um, means primary or fundamental. Um, the term is used in Christianity to mean in, for example, the cardinal sins, the really, really bad ones. Um, in objectiveism, the cardinal values are, are positive things that lie at the foundation of our value structure.
Speaker 1 00:03:01 The ultimate goal for Objectiveism is one's own life as, as a, as a, as a person, one's own life as a human being. But Rand says, and this is from Gall's speech, and out this shrug to live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life. Reason, purpose, self-esteem, reason as his only tool of knowledge, purpose, as his choice of the happiness, which that tool almost proceed to achieve self-esteem as his violent certainty that his mind is competent to think and is person who is worthy of happiness, which means is worthy of living.
Speaker 1 00:03:49 Now, that's a a lot of content in a very short paragraph, and it's the full text of what On Ran on Rand has to say about Cardinal values. I don't know anywhere else that she elaborated on that idea. Um, I haven't seen any of her commentators, um, such as Leonard people off or, um, uh, others who have written on the ethics elaborate on that point. But there's an, a couple of questions that are, that sort of least jump out at me and I think jump out at a lot of people. First of all, what did she mean? What are these values? What does she mean by reason, purpose, and self-esteem as fundamental values? And secondly, why those three? Well, you, those of us who, who are, uh, knowledgeable about objectiveism, um, the terms are very familiar, but step back, minute it and ask why these particular things.
Speaker 1 00:04:49 Well, I, some years ago, I, I was thinking about this and I came up with a, for the, for the second question, What a, why these three? Um, I came up with the theory that is presented in, um, a work that will Thomas and I wrote, um, called The Logical Structure of Objectiveism. And, um, Scott and, um, has nicely, um, kindly put the, uh, the URL reference to the book, which is on our website. That was Ja, that was, okay, Thank you, Ja. And what I'm gonna say today is Ron, uh, from those passages, here's the, here's the theory. I come up with that very briefly.
Speaker 1 00:05:45 If you think about gold directed action, which is common to all, all organisms at any level, what that's a dis distinguishing characteristic of organic versus non-organic entities. They pursue goals that to maintain their lives, they have to, uh, meet their needs, which are goals which they seek, and they have to exercise whatever capacities of action that they have. So any action, um, any goals, directed action. And I don't mean purpose of in the sense of conscious, I mean goal directed. You mean like a plant turning toward the sun, Um, involves three dimensions. One is there's gotta be a goal. Action has to be for something. There must be some capacity on the organisms part, some means of achieving that goal. And then there's a be beneficiary. Whom does the, whom does the, uh, achievement of that goal benefit? Uh, normally in on, throughout the, throughout the organic, um, universe, it's the, the animal or plant that acts, the organism that acts is trying to benefit itself, that we keep its life in place.
Speaker 1 00:07:05 Well upon that to human beings. Human beings, um, unlike other lower forms of organic life, do not, um, pursue their set number of values deliberately by, uh, automatically by hardwired. We have free will. We have reason, we have the capacity to choose. So that's why we need ethics in the first place. And, but we're still talking about goal directed action for human beings. Therefore, the what, what is, what are the means that we have our basic means, Our cardinal means for acting. It's the capacity of reason. What, what goals do we pursue? Well, life fundamentally, but to pursue life, we must be act in a deliberately purpose of way. Um, so purpose, maintaining purpose is an important, um, cardinal value. And finally, the beneficiary of our actions should be the self on Rand says self-esteem. Um, will Thomas and I, uh, have the slight disagreement on that point?
Speaker 1 00:08:22 Uh, and so we think of the third cardinal value as simply self, and I'll explain the difference in a moment. So that's why these three means goal and beneficiary, reason, purpose sell. So lemme say, go move on to the, the, what I think is the primary question. What are these sterns mean? What does it mean to have reason as a value to hold purpose as a value? Let's start with reason. Um, so many people have wondered why rationality is described as a virtue and reason is described as a value, hard, no value. Why? What's the difference between? Reason is a value and rationality is a virtue. Well, fundamentally, reason as a value means valuing one's mind, valuing one's rational capacity. It's not just the exercise of reason, in particular actions, um, which is rationality. Um, and it's not limited. The rationality on the other hand, is, is a broader concept than reason or reason as a value, because rationality is, um, our means of achieving any value, whatever in any domain.
Speaker 1 00:09:41 But our capacity for reason is a special value. Um, and valuing the mind means a couple of things. I'm just going to give you a few of the points that, uh, you'll find in that, uh, chapter on cardinal values. It means, first of all, commitment to understanding reality and accepting it even when you don't like it. Um, that has many dimensions. But for example, being objective means not faking reality through wishful thinking or emotional bias, or worst of all lies, you know, rent's argument with about rationalities. And when you lied to others, you were making up a false reality for them. You might get away with it for a while, but you're counting on their stupidity. When you lie to yourself, you are corrupting your most important tool for living. The mind is, <laugh> is an incredibly complex and delicate instrument. When you fake reality, it's like throwing sand into your gas tank.
Speaker 1 00:10:46 Your engine's going to eventually will slow down and stop performing. Objectivity is one dimension of, of, uh, one aspect of a goal of valuing reason. Another. The second important one in my view is that, is that of integration, integrating your knowledge, keeping it consistent, always expanding it, being interested over time in the acquisition of skills and knowledge. So valuing your mind is something that is implicit in any action, in every action properly. Your mind is the tool for any and every action. And, but over time, your mind is something to develop, grow, and protect from putting sand into your gas tank. Um, by contrast, just to give you a, a stark opposition, think of Alzheimer's, terrible disease of, of old age. Uh, it's worse than blindness. Alzheimer's is, is mental blindness. It's the loss of memories, of knowledge and worth of all of the ability to think clearly. The loss of one's mind. It's not just the loss of a sense organ like blindness, which is bad enough. Um, it is a terrible fate. And the fact that it is a terrible fate, uh, is a way of illustrating how important your mind is as your most important possession, your most important value. Okay, move on to, uh, to purpose. As a ve out.
Speaker 1 00:12:36 Again, there are some paradoxes that will and I talk about in, in holding purpose as a cardinal value. But here's what it means. Uh, first of all, it means the commitment to act for our values in reality, achieving our goals rather than letting an intention remain in the mind as an unrealized wish of what if, oh, I could have, should have, but I didn't. Uh, d out shrug on first has a reflection as she looks at the engines that are driving this incredible vehicle. Um, reflection is, it's a quote from the book. First the thought, then the purposeful motion down the straight line of a single track to a chosen goal. Wasn't it evil to wish without moving the intention, without the action, or to move without aim, to act without purpose? Which is another point. The cons. Purpose as a ordinate value means the constant ongoing commitment to acting on purpose, to having a purpose to knowing what you're doing.
Speaker 1 00:13:55 It also means appreciating that your values, all of them from the highest value your own life down to today's value of taking out the crash. Um, those values exist in a hierarchy of importance, hierarchy of fundamentality and importance to your life. So having purpose as a value means purpose of being, means being, purpose of, in the sense of a sense of priorities. You know, why you're doing the things you're doing now, and why that's more important than the things you might have been doing otherwise, the, uh, uh, all the other actions that you've for by doing this action. And finally, it means, um, valuing achievement and the creation of value, production, discovery, invention, improvement, getting things done, making a difference in the world, making the world and the image of your values, that's part of purpose. It. And the, the concept of purpose, the value of purpose as you're holding in your mind is that that's a constant, um, uh, uh, kind, kind of drive or awareness or goal that, um, you have at any moment.
Speaker 1 00:15:21 So it's the, the pursuit of purpose is Iran describes it as the choice of the happiness, which reason must proceed to achieve. Um, and in that sense, being purpose is the core element that gives meaning to a life and that need for meaning is so I think unmistakably, uh, a part of human psychology. Uh, and brand's point here is, I, I think, and, and I would totally agree that meaning comes from the purposes you've chosen. Not from anything outside, not from God's will for you or society's plan for you, um, or anything else, um, or the integrity of the environment that's outside you, all those omega, not God or society. But, um, you know, the things we might do for our environment, um, but we don't sacrifice for that purpose. And speaking of sacrifice, that brings us to the final, um, of the cardinal values self.
Speaker 1 00:16:31 Uh, Rand described the, um, self-esteem as the embodi certainty that his mind is competent to think as his person is worthy of happiness, which means is worthy of living. That's part of what I quoted earlier. Now, here's where Will and I have a slight, um, departure from Rand's concept. And the reason is that self-worth is a moral appraisal level itself. It's based on the character when it has acquired worthy of life. Cuz I have lived a good life so far, and I, my ambition is to continue leading a good and even better life, um, morally as well as practically.
Speaker 1 00:17:18 So, but we don't start with the character. You develop a character, why should we seek to acquire it? There's gotta be a more fun that one, one reason that led will need to think that there's, there must be a more fundamental commitment to one's self as a beneficiary of action than self-esteem, which is a hugely important. Um, but there are more fundamental layers to considering oneself as a beneficiary. And there are also, what about aspects of ourselves besides competence, the competence to live and the worthiness to live besides competence in character. Every one of us as individuals, uh, has many, many characteristics that give us each a unique identity, including temperament, uh, personality, interests, cognitive style. I mean, the list goes on. There are many, many dimensions of something as complex as a human being. And those, those aspects of our identity, that's part of what it means to consider oneself an a beneficiary. I wanna live for me, all of me, you should live for you, all of you, and, um, not simply your character or, um, any specific competence. So this is why I think that self is a more fundamental commitment to oneself. It explains the need for self-esteem as a specific spiritual value, and it motivates us to achieve it and maintain it through virtue such as rationality and pride.
Speaker 1 00:19:07 To put it a different way, it, it's a commitment to one's self as a beneficiary of all the actions when takes in pursuing one's life. If the root of the cardinal value of purpose is an esteem for and commitment to my life as an ultimate end, the root of the cardinal value itself is an esteem and commitment to my life, to my myself, as the ultimate beneficiary of my actions. So, uh, that, what that means is valuing one's identity, recognizing and being aware and appreciating, um, one's self, even in those respects that may not have moral c significance. Whether you have a good sense of humor, well, if you do, that's an asset to be valued. If you don't, well, you probably, you have other assets you can enjoy, humor or whatever that, that's a trivial example. But, um, it is an example. Um, self is a value, and this certainly applies to self-esteem, is a commitment to happiness, your own happiness and making it possible. One of the critics, uh, some of the critics of egoism, the broad view of oneself as beneficiary, say, Well, that's like telling people to roll off a log. Well, no, it isn't. Being committed to your happiness is hard, and many people give up and just settle for less than happy life. Um, it comes from choosing consistently to value yourself.
Speaker 1 00:20:48 So, um, by way of summary, I think those, these cardinal values are fundamental because they tap what for humans are the essential means of acting reason be essential goal of acting one's own life by holding purpose as a, as a value and a beneficiary, the self. So with that, I want to, um, let me, let me stop here. That was a lot to go over in a lot to digest, I know. Um, and again, I, um, uh, would recommend anyone who wants to follow up or learn, learn some of these things, um, uh, to take a look at the logical structure of, So let's, let's turn to questions.
Speaker 0 00:21:50 Thanks, David. Um, alright, well, we would love to, uh, get any of you up on stage if you want to ask David a question about Cardinal values, um, or any other questions about philosophy. So please just raise your hand and do that. And also wanted to remind you to please share the room so we can give others an opportunity to, uh, have this discussion with our founder, David Kelly. Uh, David, one question is, is how does Benevolence fit into the cardinal value scheme that you're discussing?
Speaker 1 00:22:27 Well, I consider Benevolence a virtue, uh, not a value per se. It's a pattern, it's a way of acting. The, the value that Benevolence aims for is, um, productive win-win a, a value exchange with other people. And Val, I mean by value exchange at all levels, commercial, personal, romantic, um, it's the idea of the creator principle. It's a, it's, it's a form of acting by the creator principle, and that's a principle of justice. But we don't get to the point of having a trade unless we start, begin by treating people with benevolence, which means looking for opportunities, being open to opportunities, um, with people. That means, and that requires, in turn, treating people a certain way. So I would say it's a virtue, um, not a benevolence per se. It's not a value of technically speaking in ethics, but it's a virtue that aims a certain values.
Speaker 0 00:23:41 Got it. That's helpful, Lawrence. And I am seeing that telltale absence of a mute button, which, you know, the drill <laugh>, you're gonna have to sign out and sign back in. Tom,
Speaker 2 00:23:57 Can you hear me?
Speaker 0 00:23:58 We can hear you.
Speaker 2 00:23:59 Great. Thank you. Uh, hi, David. I, my question is on the cardinal value of purpose, and if I remember, uh, the, the structure, the, the logical virtue that comes out of that is, uh, productivity. And so the one, one of the conundrum I'm seeing is perhaps, you mentioned this earlier about the paradox of it, but, uh, is there a, uh, a principle that will incorporate the, the cardinal value of purpose to, um, productiveness? Um, and if so, uh, how is that, um, how is that formulated? I know that what's, it's gonna have to be some kind of a teleological hypothetical statement, uh, but, uh, is purposed in the antecedent, the if, um, to express the value, and then the action is, is, is something else. So that's a little bit of, um, uh, conundrum for me.
Speaker 1 00:25:24 Uh, excuse me. Okay. Uh, purpose means being purpose of that it at which includes knowing what you're doing, having a purpose, knowing what it is, why it's, and why it's important to you. And that is a constant, um, uh, a constant. It's like this is, and I'm gonna offer an analogy, which is some people would consider explaining the obscure by the even words here. Um, but, uh, it's like the axiom of, uh, existence. One, one way of keeping your mind on track is understanding that there's a reality there. It is what it is. It's not affected by your views, uh, or your wishes or fears. It is what it is. And that is true of every act of cognition you make from the most simplest sensation to the most advanced scientific theory or philosophical theory. And it's a guiding principle. Well, purpose is an analysis in the sense that it's a guiding value in its implicit in all of our actions.
Speaker 1 00:26:38 We always have some purpose, but what makes humans human beings different from other animals is that we need to be conscious. Hold purpose consciously is the value, because we do have the capacity to evade, to daydream, drift, um, have wishes that we never act on like Dagney said. Um, so that's, that's one point about the nature of purpose. What, how does it relate to productivity? Well, Iron Rand did think that productivity was the key virtue that, um, embodies or is, is a virtue because of it. It allows us to achieve our purposes. And she was thinking of productivity in the sense of, I think the career work, um, considered broadly to mean any kind of, uh, sustained linear activity that, you know, leads you from one step to, to the other. Um, this is an issue that objectives, um, have debated a lot. Uh, my own view is that productivity, if you, if you literally mean making things or providing services or working, then that is only one, um, purpose.
Speaker 1 00:27:58 It may be a central purpose, that's what Iron Rand says, but we have many other purposes in life, and throughout all of those areas of action, we should be purpose of knowing what we're doing and why. So I would say the, uh, in it might be better to think of the virtue as being responsible, having integrity, acting as to achieve your goals in consistency with your own, um, with your, with your own values and, uh, abilities. Exercising, I mean, purpose means exercising, um, your capacity to action, guided by your knowledge of what you want to achieve, and guided by your virtues and technical knowledge about how best to achieve it. So I'm not sure, Tom, if, tell me if I'm getting anywhere near to an answer to your question.
Speaker 2 00:29:03 Yeah, well, I, I, I see what you, um, uh, broadening the scope of, uh, productiveness to, to be, uh, about being responsible. And, and I do remember your lecture on choosing life, that, um, that's the, the ultimate choice is, um, well choosing life and then acting on, on that and being responsible for that. So, so I see the, the connection there. So I'm, I'm guessing that what you are denigrate or demoting is, um, the idea of productiveness as a, uh, a virtue that can be tied directly to purpose, rather, you're saying that a purpose as a cardinal value is, is almost like a, a background in the subconscious, uh, constantly there as in the, the axioms, uh, for, for valuing, uh, uh, I'm pursuing values and so on. So it's not that directly relate, uh, connected to productiveness. Is that, am I, uh, getting right?
Speaker 1 00:30:20 Yes. Even if, Yes, I, that's exactly right. I think even if you, uh, broaden the concept of productiveness to include, for example, raising children, which I ran, you know, acknowledged, Um, you still have, uh, you know, there are times when your kids are grown. There are times when you retire from work and do whatever. You, you should still be purpose, but you, you may have produced enough that you don't need, at least in term monetary terms or, um, work related terms, you're done. So it can't be productiveness, um, if you, if what you mean literally is kind of pursuing a career, um, it may well be the most important of the goals, uh, most important of our purposes. But being purpose will apply to someone who's retired, um, manage just managing his own money, um, having fun with his grown kids for grown kids, whatever. I mean, it's just going on canoe trips, um, purpose applies to everything you do. All right.
Speaker 3 00:31:50 This, for this, David, Um, I'm still sort of working through it all in my own mind, but the question that, um, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on is when you talk about the cardinal values, and that initial premise of it all starts from man has free will, and you sort of move down that chart, including, you know, value of self and whatnot, um, I guess how do we approach individuals who, for whatever reason, have become perhaps like unable to achieve their purpose or values and have become more emotional or perhaps have come to their own, at least in their own belief reason that it's not worth going on? Because other philosophers or, or, or thinkers like I, I know Locke says that it comes to a point where you, you could choose reason to end your life, but it feels like that would run counter to objectives, principles. So how would we approach individuals in that state to sort of reorient them back to these values?
Speaker 1 00:33:04 Well, the answer to that question is largely psychological. But let me just say about that possibility in, in, uh, Tom referred earlier to an essay I wrote called Choosing Life, and that was about life as an ultimate value and specifically choosing it and what that means, Um, uh, the sense that the search for meaning in life and the sense of life is, uh, worth living. And, you know, this is another aspect of the fact that mind is unbelievably complex. We have emotions as well as, um, cognition. We have temperaments, we have, we react to things. We, um, feelings can be, uh, they're usually important, but they can also interfere with, uh, or, you know, the key example here is depression. If someone is depressed, um, that may well be, I mean, and I think in psychology that it would be considered the true depression is not just a bad mood where you're having to be feeling down or tired at a given point in time, but when it's, it's the loss of goals.
Speaker 1 00:34:27 And, um, people who've written about depression often say, There's nothing that can motivate me anymore. I'm, um, I've given up. I have no capacity, I don't care. And in the extreme case where that is so pervasive and long doing, that's one of the cheap causes of suicide. So that is a tragic situation, a tragic, uh, condition to be in. There's, there's been a lot of work in psychology about how to get to people, how to, uh, help with depression now, including medications as well as therapy. But, um, because the mind is so complicated, there's a lot that can go wrong, and not all of it is deliberate or the result of our, you know, of evasion or, or bad thinking. A lot of it is yes, but, um, not all. And so in that case, what the cardinal virtues would subscribe is use your mind for the purpose of getting out of this state.
Speaker 1 00:35:43 It's like a psychological emergency, you know, in the ethics of emergency rent says it when you're in an emergency, the primary goal, the ultimate goal, uh, is get out of the emergency, return to, uh, normality, depression, Um, giving up are not normal, however common they are. They're not wired into us, um, independently of choice. And when they happen from whatever wired in things happen, we can still use our minds, just think, figure out a way to get out of it and, you know, cap the minds of those who can help. So that's the best I can do as not as a, not a therapist, but, um, that's what I would say, having done a lot of breeding and think about this phenomenon. Um, so I'll just leave it there. Thanks, Lawrence.
Speaker 0 00:36:42 All right. I was hoping that Melanie might join us up here, uh, because she has her PhD in geriatric social work. So I know that, um, she's thought a lot about, uh, aging and, um, maintaining one's cognitive functions as we grow older, and also, uh, of course the, the terrible plague of, of dementia. So, Melanie, do you wanna unmute yourself and ask David a question? It's kind of hard, you just have to, There you did it. Oops. You back off now you did it. Whoops. <laugh>. Okay, we hear you. Go ahead, mom. Full disclosure. She's my mom too. Melanie, you wanna go ahead and ask your question? You can just speak. All right. Well, as we're figuring that out, I, I can actually, Scott is, is muted, but I can still hear him thinking. So, Scott, go ahead.
Speaker 4 00:37:59 I, I think, um, <laugh>, thank you, David. Good talk. Um, I, I remember a line in Atlas shrugged, I think, uh, Hank and Francisco were saying, uh, you know, what is the most depraved person one without a purpose? And yeah. Um, I think, um, I, I think that in some ways I'm curious what you think about societal, um, purpose or, uh, civilizational purpose. Like, I, I I think that, you know, we used to, whether it was survival or growing the country or the Cold War, that we had more of like a national purpose. And kind of as that's gone away that, um, you know, social justice or environmentalism is almost kind of filled in the void.
Speaker 1 00:38:48 Um, that's an interesting question. Yeah. And, and I think there's an answer that comes from the political philosophy that follows from this very individualist, ethical philosophy. And that is the government has a specific job to do, uh, specific role. So if we, if we're talking just about the government, which means the one public institution that everyone in the country is part of and shares and is ultimately responsible to, you know, following the law, if that's what you mean by national purpose, the way I would put it, um, is our national purpose should be to be a nation of private purposes. The whole function of government is to allow individuals to interact by choice without coercion, but otherwise after, other than banning coercion and protecting, ie. Protecting rights. Um, that's it. Now, there are lots of other things that, lots of specifics that come up under that in war time.
Speaker 1 00:40:05 Obviously the protection of individual rights means a large military budget and a large military, um, effort that, um, but it's a winning the war can, can involve a lot more than on the part of the government than a lot of spending, a lot of producing, a lot of fighting that, um, are, are not, uh, part of normal times or peaceful times. Now that, but that's about the government. If you mean society, I think society, um, what, what I would like to see is a society, uh, that's based on respect for reason, and for individuals, for individualism, for individual happiness, the individual pursuit of goals in a peaceful, win-win, voluntary, um, arrangement with that allows everyone to live as best they can choose to do, and allows those with the most capacity to produce in our science business, uh, to, to do so and create the values that all of us enjoy as they filter down to us. Um, so I'm, you know, I mentioned going to the gala, um, and what are, what are my means? Well, one is to make travel reservations. What kind of travel? By playing, I didn't invent the plane, someone did, and I'm now the, I hope they made a lot of money doing that. Um, but right now I'm the beneficiary. And so for a couple hundred bucks I can be transported outta speed and do degree of safety that were impossible even a hundred years ago alone, 500. So the, um,
Speaker 1 00:42:09 I guess my general point is the national purpose. If what you mean is the government's purpose, um, should be protection of rights, social purpose is to have a, um, a society that respects and honors, uh, talent and ability and effort at any level. And, uh, is not driven by envy, malice, or other such, uh, I, I'm gonna call them sins cuz they really are
Speaker 6 00:42:53 <laugh>. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:42:56 Okay. If Melanie, I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 0 00:43:04 You might wanna sign back out and sign back in. That's also something that happens, um, because I'm not seeing your mute button now. So give that, give that a try. And otherwise, uh, we're really honored to have Richardson professor, professor of Duke and senior scholar at the Atlas Society.
Speaker 6 00:43:27 Thank you Jennifer. And thank you, David. This is, uh, very good, very helpful. I, when I hear Cardinal, I hear something like, really, really, really important, and these are the really important values. And so, and that suggests a hierarchy. So, um, why only, why only these three, uh, is there a fourth like on the horizon that might have made the list? So that's one question, but the other one is, these three have always struck me as lining up with three of the virtues, namely, uh, rationality, productiveness and pride. Is that just me seeing shadows that don't exist? Or was that her intention? Because if, um, you know, what does it say about the other virtues that, you know, did not find a, corollary is not the right word, but did not find a reflection in the values? You know, I'll stop there. I could say more, but I hope that's enough to, to make it understandable to you.
Speaker 1 00:44:40 Yes. Um, in the objective ethics, Rand says in that, um, paragraph, uh, it covers the same very short, it's essentially the same as the one I quoted from John, uh, from, uh, Gold's speech. But she goes on to say, um, the three values, which together are the cardinal values are the three values, which together are the means and the realization of one's ultimate value, one's own life. That's an interesting point that I could, I will, I could elaborate on, but to answer your question, um, with the three corresponding virtues, rationality, product, premise, and pride. So, but she goes on to mention four other virtues, <laugh>, um, besides those three. And they are honesty, integrity, justice, um, yeah. And, uh, independence. Yeah. And in a way you could say those are aspects of rationality, uh, applied to different, yeah, different, um, aspects of reason in particularly in a social context.
Speaker 1 00:45:57 Um, or the ways in which reason could be compromised. And you need these virtues to, uh, avoid falling into certain traps. Like hypocrisy or lying. Honesty is says not don't fake reality rationally says grasp reality. Yeah. So, um, however, I, the more as I've thought about it, and I don't think this is a department from Rand, I think like these virtues are just ways of carving the basic goal, carving up the different things, aspects of life of a rational, productive, a rational purpose of Yeah. Life yourself. Yeah. And so, but rationality, as I was saying, um,
Speaker 1 00:46:46 You should be rational in whatever you're doing, whether you're, um, advancing your mind that is using rationality to seek, to enhance the value of your own rational capacity as in learning a new subject or a skill, but also use rationality in producing. And you use rationality in pursuing your self-esteem. Um, so rationality is always a, in any realm, um, that's, that's one of the reasons why reason is such an important value cuz it's a source of your ability to act, you know, in in, in support of your life across every domain of action. And simply, um, productiveness, this goes back to an issue that I was, as Tom I was talking, discussing about this productiveness is, um, it's, it's often treated as it's somewhat narrower than, than being purpose if in general, because if productiveness means work producing value in the world for exchange, then, um, that's hugely important. And it may be the, you know, the, the most important of the purposes you can pursue in life, but it, it, there you, it saying it's the most important doesn't mean it's the only. So it, it, I think the scope of productive productivity as we normally understand it, is a little narrower than being purpose of
Speaker 6 00:48:27 Yeah. Yeah. I like also the, the parallels of means goal and beneficiary, the beneficiary part self-esteem or, um, pride when it's as a virtue of pride. It's always been interesting to me because it, it's taken a long time for me to get out of the mindset that it's just a cause. You know, you do all these other things, you'll be proud of yourself. Yeah. But if it's a, but if it's a virtue, it's gonna be much more active than that. Right? It's not the residue of all that happens when you carry out the other six virtues. So I think at one point she called it moral ambitiousness, and if that's true, it's an active virtue. But you know, David, it's, it's sometimes conveyed as passive, right? Same thing. Same thing with self-esteem. If you say, is that the cause or the effect? Well, unless we have self-esteem, we're not likely even to get outta bed in the morning. Say, on the other hand, it's, it's true that when we exercise the virtues, we feel and, and achieve the values, we feel better about ourselves. So I, any thoughts on that? It's not really a question, I guess, but whether you've ever
Speaker 1 00:49:36 Thought about one of the things that, uh, again, Will and I developed, uh, in the, uh, al structure book, and this is in the chapter on virtues as opposed to values, but our analysis of pride, it has, it, it's kind of Jan faced in a way. It has a backward looking aspect of taking credit for what you've accomplished, taking credit for the good things you've done. Right? You don't, you know, I've probably all known people who have been highly successful achieved a great deal, but Phil lousy, cuz they don't, they don't appreciate it. They don't stop to, uh, smell the coffee they brewed, so to speak, mixed metaphors.
Speaker 6 00:50:16 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:50:17 Um, but it also has forward looking, and that's a moral ambition, is keep keep doing the good stuff because you want to maintain your character and that's how you do it. Um, it's a very agen point. You, you, you acquire virtues by practicing them, by acting on them. And, uh, because to an extent that a virtue is a, a psychologically is, uh, a habit or a tendency, um, not, not, not a blind habit as, um, some people have recruited aero solo or other, think other thinkers have held, but a a conscious habit, but still a habit that is there when you need.
Speaker 6 00:51:04 Very helpful. Thank you, David. Very helpful. Thanks. Sure.
Speaker 0 00:51:09 Melanie? Yes. Can you hear me now?
Speaker 1 00:51:15 Yes, I can. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:51:25 Go ahead. Lost you again. We're getting close though. We'll, we'll practice this every clubhouse and we'll get it right. You just keep, keep trying to chime in and, and we'll to you to unmute. Well
Speaker 4 00:52:03 Be able to, Yeah, I think he's leaving and coming back.
Speaker 0 00:52:06 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:52:07 Melanie, was that you?
Speaker 0 00:52:25 All right. Well, we still have a few minutes left. Um, I'm going to ask for last calls, last questions. If anybody in the room? I think I see a familiar face. I'm gonna invite him.
Speaker 2 00:52:40 I have a follow up if you care. Do use my question.
Speaker 0 00:52:47 All right, go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:52:48 Thank you. Uh, it has to do with, uh, the idea that, uh, reason, purpose, and self are spiritual values. Now, in one of the diagrams that you have in the LSO diagram 3.1, you say that it is a spiritual category. It's in the, uh, category of spiritual value. And then there are two, um, i orders of justification. There's the logical as well as the, I mean the justifi, uh, order of, uh, of the social, I mean the political contributing to the social, the social contributing to the spiritual and the spiritual to the material, and which ultimately goes to the ultimate value. Um, my question is the, uh, shouldn't it be the spiritual value first? Uh, i, I mean, uh, connecting to the ultimate value or at least, uh, on the same order as material value. Um, that, that's my question.
Speaker 1 00:54:01 Okay. Yes, that's good. And, and, uh, I appreciate the fact that you, you've, uh, obviously studied the logical structure book. Um, what this diagram is, um, I haven't looked at this in a long time, but the, uh, this is the order of derivation, um, that is rather the order of, of support we start. And the arrows are a little, um, confusing in a way. All the one's ultimate value is in one's life. That's the foundation of everything else to pursue life. The next thing, first thing in order you have to do is achieve material value, uh, values, food, shelter, health, mobility, production.
Speaker 1 00:54:52 These are things that we obviously need as living beings. And then this is where we are closest to the animal sphere, in that all animal, at least iron animals need to provide food, shelter, um, deal with, maintain their health as best they can, um, and their mobility as best they can. How do you do that? Well, because reason is the means by which you achieve majority of the values in particular and reduct all production. Then we need to value reason. And that takes us to spiritual, including reason, of course, but purpose, esteem, and some of the, the spec more specific, um, less abstract values such as education or career, recreation and so forth. And because of that, we, there are certain social values. So the, uh, one way of obtaining material or spiritual values is by trading with others, engaging in economic, uh, exchange, but also personal value, personal relationships, um, friendship, family, um, communicating with other people, learning from other people.
Speaker 1 00:56:17 Uh, humans are the only species we know that can pass along, acquired knowledge. Um, to the next and last in order are the political values that are required If you're, we are to be able to live as individuals pursuing material, spiritual or social values. In that respect, if you're looking at the diagram, I, the arrows are a little puzzling, and I'd have to think about why we did it that way. Um, because, um, it's really a, uh, a hierarchy of of derivation and as a hierarchy of derivation, the arrows should be pointing downward, not upwards. <laugh>, um, we're, I'm talking about something I'm looking at, and Tom, you've seen maybe looking at too, but not in front of us. Um, if, if we had a, uh, if I could do a screenshot, um, of my computer, I could show you. But the point is, why do we need reason?
Speaker 1 00:57:19 It's not an intrinsic value. There are no intrinsic values. Reason is a means to what a means to mom's life. Why? Because we have to produce in order to live. So if you wanna produce, you've gotta exercise reason. And if you want to exercise reason consistently, you must value reason and purpose and self. So that's, that's the order Now, the philosophical order of derivation, this is only thing about objective objectives, ethics. It's not just, doesn't just say, Okay, live your life and flourish. What does flourishing mean? Well, a lot of the people who are, who talk about flourishing, including Aris civilian, and, um, a lot of objectives too tend to take, take for granted what, what the ingredients of, of flourishing are. This is what the logical structure book tries to show is there's actually a way of deriving the elements of flourishing of a good life.
Speaker 4 00:58:30 Great. Well, uh, thank you for that. Um, you know, just, uh, wanted to just touch on a few events for next week. Uh, we've got tomorrow here on Clubhouse at 5:30 PM Eastern i Rand versus Nature with Professor Jason Hill. Uh, Monday night at 7:30 PM Eastern, we've got the Atlas Society. September Book Club. Richard Salzman will be hosting on Gold and Liberty. Uh, Tuesday, the Objectiveist Theory of Family with Rob Tru Zinsky here on Clubhouse at 7:00 PM Eastern. And, uh, Wednesday we've got the Atla Society asks Robert zk. And then, uh, Thursday, uh, Richard Salzman will be back with a student event for Morals and Markets. So, uh, lots going on next week. And we've got our gala in, um, Malibu October 6th panels with the scholars during the day. Ja, go ahead.
Speaker 0 00:59:27 Yep. Exactly two weeks away to the day. So I'm looking forward to seeing all of my colleagues as well as, uh, some of our supporters who will be in the audience. So if you're in the Southern California area or up for a, a hop on a plane, then please join us. It's gonna be a great event.
Speaker 4 00:59:51 Great. Thanks everybody.
Speaker 1 00:59:54 Thanks. Uh, Ja, Scott, uh, Lawrence, Richard, everyone, um, and Melanie. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, sorry we didn't get to you at this time. Um, I'll look forward to
Speaker 0 01:00:09 Yes. And she'll be at the gala, so you'll see her there.
Speaker 1 01:00:12 Wonderful. Good.
Speaker 0 01:00:13 Okay. Thank.
