Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 So, uh, people are filtering in. I want to welcome everybody to our clubhouse chat with David Kelly's, the founder of the Atlas society. And, um, he is going to be talking about a topic we don't usually cover in objectivism, which is the arc of life. And talking about how objectivist ethics apply to different stages in human development, from infancy to childhood maturity. And then on, into, um, old age, you know, you tend to think about, uh, Iran's heroes and her novels. You know, we don't see many children in those books. And, um, we think of the values of independence and reason and ambition, uh, and choosing your friends, but, you know, being able to live your own life and make your own way. Uh, but there are times as we are growing up and then times when we are growing older, when, uh, we are not quite so independent and we need help. So David, maybe talk a little bit about, um, how started to develop this topic. Uh, I know that you have been conducting a research workshop on it, how it attracted your attention and why you thought it was
Speaker 1 00:01:33 Well, my thanks G uh, Jennifer, I, uh, this is a topic I've been thinking about for a long time. And, um, let me give you a little philosophical background, um, uh, about the philosophical aspects of the ethics, and then getting into some of the issues that, um, I think are, um, part and parcel of this general topic. And there are many such issues, um, just by way of background and, um, you know, a foundation, uh, I ran described objectivism, um, as a philosophy for living on earth and, um, which is a lovely, um, you know, summary expression. Uh, but the keyword there is living you've got, and I'm going to quote from Rand in her objective as ethics, the objectivist ethics holds man's life as the standard of value and his own life as the ethical purpose of every individual, man, man must chooses actions, values, and goals by the standard of that, which is proper demand in order to achieve, maintain, fulfill, and enjoy that ultimate value that end in itself, which is his own life.
Speaker 1 00:02:51 So that's the foundation of the ethics and she spelled it out, um, in terms of a number of principles pertaining to the values that we should seek, um, to have a good life like productive work and self-esteem, and also the virtues that we should practice, uh, in order to achieve those values, virtues like rationality and independence of mind, um, living by these principles is the way to use the capacities that we have as human beings and to meet the needs that are part of our nature. That's, that's your breakfast. Ethics is based on, uh, a view of human nature, what our, what our fundamental needs and capacities are. Um, now these principles are very abstract. Um, they cover a lot of variations in how people, the choices people actually made make about their work, um, their relationships and on, and on the kind of art they like, et cetera, over just myriad at different dimensions of, of lives.
Speaker 1 00:03:58 But the standards are also, and this is my main topic for today, uh, based on the needs and capacities of a mature adult, right? That's where ethics has to start. We pick the human being in, um, normal faculties, um, mature and functioning. Um, and then we in ethics, we would work back to childhood from that and say, how did the principles apply in childhood and forward to how they apply to old age? And as Jennifer mentioned, often an increasing dependence. Um, but the point is, we're not, we're not born as adults. Obviously we have a lifespan from birth to old age, uh, to adulthood old age, and finally death from that perspective, life is not only a state to be maintained through our actions at any point in time, but it's a process over time with a duration of beginning and an end and a lot of stuff in between of course, the interesting stuff.
Speaker 1 00:05:10 Um, so the ethical principles of objective is more based on our needs and capacities as living beings, but those needs had capacities change over time in the lifespan. Uh, and that's in a perspective that the objective is ethics that writers in and exponents of that, that, that I haven't really explored very fully. And that's a little embarrassing. Um, but I've been thinking about it and, um, you know, because it'd be going to apply the principles and the principles are very abstract, as I said, so they have, you have to apply them to the context you're in. And a big part of that context is how old you are, where you are in your life. Um, it's embarrassing too, if there's, this is a huge topic in psychology. Psychologists have done, you know, just many unconscionably, many studies of, uh, the lifespan. One of the more famous ones was, um, a study, um, that began decades ago of Harvard graduates and then fall cracking them through their careers, their marriages with lots of interviews, um, over, over that time span into old age.
Speaker 1 00:06:27 Um, and of course this is, it's also a little embarrassing, the objective, this have not been more, um, involved with this, um, with the possible exception of some of the objective of psychologists like Daniel, Brandon packer, um, because it's, it's something that everyone thinks about. Um, I, you know, I, uh, that I don't have to, I can explain to you the, um, the distinction between life as a stage in life as a process, but, you know, that's, that's an abstract philosophers characterization, all of us think about our lives and where we're going and, um, preparing for contingencies, raising kids and thinking about their lives and so forth. Um, but the point is psychology studies people as they are, um, it's not a normative discipline, uh, evaluate, evaluating, you know, uh, the different stages of life and offering good guidance, moral guidance on how to make the choices that we encounter through the lifespan is that that's the role of ethics.
Speaker 1 00:07:38 And, uh, so we, I've been talking about yesterday with, um, I've been thinking about myself for a while and, um, that as Jennifer mentioned, we had a research workshop on it, um, over a course of five, I think, five to six sessions, and there's a lot to say, um, and it's a big topic, but I wanted to leave as much time as possible for, um, requests and comments. So let me just, uh, let me mention two things. Um, the first one fairly quickly, it, it has to do with the development of reason and our rational faculty, uh, rationality is a Cardinal virtue and objectivism, um, involving a commitment to be objective, make all your, um, decisions about what to believe and how to act on the basis of your awareness of reality. Um, but reason is in the numerously complex ability and it develops over time.
Speaker 1 00:08:45 Um, I mean, for one thing, it can be stymied by parents and educators, um, and culture. I ran wrote a whole essay call the conference Chico's on the way in which progressive education undermined the development of rationality in the part of kids and, and independence as well. Um, and of course, culture is a factor too in religious cultures, um, raising the subordinated faith, at least in certain areas of belief and action. Um, and sort of the, the more modern version of faith is the post-modern stuff that too many people are drinking deeply at, um, and, or were being, is being forced fed in, in schools and colleges that say, there's no, you know, rationalities and death, objectivities in myth. Um, feelings, feelings are predominated. If you feel, for example, if you feel like you're a victim, then you are. Um, so, but even without those, um, obstacles from parents, educators, the culture a lot, even that those obstacles, it, we're not born holding rational, um, or we're not born fully with the feature of full independence.
Speaker 1 00:10:20 Um, you know, we, we read the Fountainhead and, um, there's, there is a Howard Roark and we meet them at age 22 and he already knows, uh, he has standards of architectural competence. He's confident in his judgment, he's puzzled by the Dean, uh, that he's in the first chapter, fifteens, you know, deference to other people and ask architectural styles. Um, and there's a sense in which, um, some of rents characters in the novels, um, we get some backstories, but there's the general sense that they, they, they, we meet them kind of fully developed, um, as objective as heroes, um, you know, like Athena in the, some, the one version of a Greek method was sprung fully formed from the forehead of Zeus, but, um, rationality takes time and particularly the element of independence. Um, a lot of the psychological studies, um, find that people tend to develop independence only over time, um, as first of all, the brain develops and matures, which is not apparently complete until, um, some point in the prison's twenties.
Speaker 1 00:11:45 Uh, but then, you know, the girl up, um, hearing all kinds of things from their parents, hearing all kinds of things then from their peers as, and then it cut college peers and work peers. So at some point, you know, you have to learn that you can make your own judgment. There's a kind of, uh, a kind of what's called metacognition, the ability to monitor and be aware to think about your own thinking. And is it objective, um, are being aware of the cognitive biases that were vulnerable to, uh, is an example, this a kind of sequence that most, most of us go through at some point in development in childhood or adolescence, we realized, well, ideas, the fact that we hear something doesn't necessarily mean it's true, we can accept or reject it. Um, and then we can go on to say, well, so I should use evidence and reasoning to examine those ideas, but reasoning and the use of evidence in the understanding of it, um, is a skill as well as a virtue.
Speaker 1 00:13:02 Um, and that skill depends on experience, understanding, um, and, and commitment, um, and the develop, the ability to do that. Um, it's not, it, it takes most people apparently from the studies, um, that I, that I've seen most, it takes most people. In fact, um, a while, sometimes well into adulthood in their forties before they have full confidence in their own judgment. Um, and because they've had enough experience and enough, uh, uh, life, life in thought and, and events, according their life that they've thought about to be able to make competent B be more confident about the judgements they make. And finally, there's a stage of just a real metacognition where you understand, I, I need to be objective. I need to, am I, am I focused on the facts right now or, or not? So that should, I think that should affect the way what we should expect of ourselves and objectivist.
Speaker 1 00:14:09 I've known a lot who are very quick to blame themselves, um, or errors that they consider to be irrational that may well be areas of knowledge or, or just a lack of your ability to understand the situation they were in, um, and not a moral failing. And it applies also to the way we judge people, um, our friends, colleagues, people we interact with. So I think, um, there's a lot more to say about the development of the cognitive capacity, um, and in particular, what I'm calling metacognition, um, the ability to monitor your own, um, uh, mental functioning. So that's one thing I wouldn't have mentioned and it pops out, but I also want to talk about another issue that, um, is very relevant to lifespan issues. And that is, um, has to do with self-esteem self-esteem is a major, major value in objectivism. Um, it's the psychological necessity.
Speaker 1 00:15:18 Uh, Brandon, I thought nicely described it as, um, the psychological immune system that we have that keeps us on track and even through hard times and crises, um, but self-esteem requires a self. And I don't think it's possible to have all self-esteem without some sense of your own, who you are as an identity, a person, an individual, your distinct individual identity. Um, and of course this is a huge topic in philosophy. Um, but the, the, the lifespan issue here is think of it this way. If I, if I ask myself who am I right now? Well, my first answer would be, well, I'm my mind. I'm like the conscious mind that is looking around me talking, um, expecting to interact with you. And, um, that's it, but really, obviously I'm much more as a person, I have a much fuller, more complicated identity. And so, so to all of you, and so does everyone, oh, you know, a full, like a person's full identity involves character personality, acquired knowledge, um, cognitive style, the particular values, concrete, specific values and bowls that the person is pursuing.
Speaker 1 00:16:59 And I think it's pretty hard to have a sense of, of oneself without some sense of the narrative of one's life and narratives are, uh, this is an interesting topic. There's been a lot written about life narratives in philosophy and psychology. Um, the idea is I use the term narrative is I think, well chosen because there's, there is a sort of analogy with a work of fiction, like a novel, um, you know, imagine you're your life, isn't novel, you're reading your own biography. Uh, you'd want to know, well, what's the backstory, how did this, where did this protagonist come from? Um, what are the goals? What goals is this pursuing? What are the, what are the person's traits and which creates there are enduring. He wants to develop over the course of time, what challenges did the and face, but external events happened that graded, um, uh, major choice situation.
Speaker 1 00:18:10 And what choice did the person make? What were the big conflicts and how would they resolve in a person's mind, all of this? I think, um, I'm not suggesting that we need to be Naval gazers about our lives. Um, but you know, it's hard to imagine how someone, um, you know, could have a sense of who, who he or she is. Um, that is who, who, who am I acting to benefit, support who's interest in my pursuing? What is that person it's me, but who am I? And so, um, then if the narrative is the story of how you came to be, how you came to be the person you are, if you ask yourself, what are my values right now? Well, part of understanding that and being truthful, that it is looking isn't includes looking at some of the choices you've made in the past.
Speaker 1 00:19:16 Why did I choose that? Why did I start that relationship? Why did I end it? Why did I switch jobs when I did, why did I move from one part of the country to another, um, you know, all this so much goes into a life that, um, uh, as, as with, as an art, you would not include everything in the narrative, only the things that are meaningful, it's significant. And of course, unlike an, unlike a published novel, um, uh, your life has some first graph stuff that you want to toss out, right? Like, you know, um, bad choices or trails that lead nowhere, but still you got where you are somehow. And knowing that, knowing something about that seems like an important to, um, who you are now. Um, one, one issue in particular that interests me is, uh, you know, the major choices and changes in your life over its duration result, from choice choices you've made, but also the opportunities that you've encountered, which are not directly, you know, they, they come to you, they're not your choice.
Speaker 1 00:20:37 So understanding what I'm responsible for in my life versus what you have. I hate use the word, but what was a matter of luck that is something happened that I could take advantage of I'm responsible for taking advantage of it, but no, I didn't create the opportunity. So that is, um, understanding that it, I think it's important for a sense of pride in your life and pride in yourself. Um, so that's, that's why my conclusion would be that, um, some sense of, of your life narrative, um, at whatever stage you're in, um, is an important, um, part of, of, of, of pursuing self-esteem, um, which is in turn necessary, um, for the pursuit of yourself interest and the maintenance of your life. So I'll, I'll, I'll pause there. And, um, I've, I've gone quickly over, you know, some, some of the main points, background, and some examples of developmental issues. But, um, as I, as I said, I think this is something people think about it a lot in our lives is not an esoteric subject, like, you know, the theory of concept formation. So, um, let's open the floor to discussion and I'll, I'll turn us back to our esteemed moderator.
Speaker 0 00:22:17 Thank you, David. And actually we have a really great room here today. Um, two people I'd like to recognize Jayla pear the chairman of the board of the Atlas society. Uh, we have Scott, Danielle always know who wants to be recognized too. Doesn't want to be recognized, speaking of viewing your life as a novel and yourself as the protagonist, um, Melanie is here. She is a geriatric social worker and, uh, in her seventies, uh, her autobiography. And so be interesting to get her perspective, uh, also want to recognize Marsha and right long time Objectivists to clubhouse. So anyone who has a question, um, or a comment, it could be about this topic, or another philosophical question that you've been wanting to ask, um, professor Kelly, Scott,
Speaker 2 00:23:25 Hi, there a good topic. Um, I think what you were kind of getting at is that because there are these different things going on across our lifespan, and there's so much to an individual person it's kind of reinforcing your case for at least in judging other people still judging, but taking that,
Speaker 1 00:23:53 Uh, yes, actually that's a good connection start. I hadn't thought of that, but, uh, you know, I think my view benevolence is not incompatible with, you know, judging people, but it, it just requires that our well being rational and making judgements, it requires you to take account of the situation and the life stage is kind of important. You wouldn't judge a teenager for doing something, you know, maybe ill considered, um, up to a certain point, um, the same way you would, you know, um, judge a 40 year old person. But yeah, that's good. Good point. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:24:44 Hey David. Great topic. Um, why do you think Rand, I'm not sure how to, how to express this, but rant often express that her psychology, her views were little changed over her life after I can't remember what age, but it was, it was quite young. And I wonder if that was part of why she didn't fully appreciate or comment on or write about this journey, because if it, and I think about the people that have have, um, without sort of embracing objectivism as foundation, they certainly are applying objectivist principles to whether they aim from objectivism or not positive psychology movement. Uh, uh, to me, everything rational and parenting, um, you know, the whole idea of, of ensuring that thinks of his life with a sense of agency and independence and trying to, you know, be concerned about my life, my hat over a lifetime and the values that are needed to develop and do that.
Speaker 3 00:25:58 But any, any thoughts on, on that one and then who are the people who have done the best work. Um, and I think this is one of the most powerful tools objectivism has is, uh, it, it, you know, you, you have, um, Greg Luciano off's book. Um, well, let me, let me one more, one more point that, you know, Ron had so many amazing ideas, the idea of that your emotions were a signal that you needed to introspect and David, your point, uh, often made that ideas are either true or false, fairly good or evil to start with you. It, it does when I an emotion like envy, I know that it's not making me happy. What what's, w w w w what's the opportunity that, that creates for me, because now that's a tool that helps me to understand myself and, and integrate into this, this narrative idea that you've, uh, you've framed anyway. I know there's a lot, you've covered a lot too, David.
Speaker 1 00:27:07 Yeah. Fair enough. Uh, Jay, uh, no, thanks that, uh, let me start with your last question. I think, um, this is one ingredient in, in learning who you are as a person, um, and, and be as an interesting example, because, um, if you find yourself feeling empty of something, um, it takes a certain amount of metacognition. So to speak it, to recognize, to grasp that, that emotion is sending, telling you something either about the world, but also about yourself and, um, understanding why and, and realizing this is not, this is not an appropriate reaction. Um, so why am I feeling it? And, you know, people, um, learn from that, that's part of the, the history of our inner history of our development over time. Um, and people get better if they can get better, some don't. But, um, so I, I think that's, that's a very important ingredient.
Speaker 1 00:28:12 The, um, because emotions are really important signals. They're not only the means of, of enjoying our lives and the reward for practicing, um, good values and virtues, but they're also signals of when something is not going right. Um, about Rand, I, you know, she has said, and she's often accused of, of just ignoring that, you know, her intellectual predecessors. I don't think that's entirely fair. I think my understanding of what she said, and I, and I don't have the sources in front of me, but it was that her, her vision of a human ideal in terms of reason, independence and productiveness and outline was clear to her at a very young age and clear enough that she could, as, you know, a twelve-year-old later on when the Bolsheviks took over, um, could say, this is wrong, this is evil. But she also said, you know, she's learned a lot, um, over the years she's developed the ideas much more fully in more detail, but the development of ideas or insights that she had, um, early on.
Speaker 1 00:29:38 So I, I, I don't, I honestly don't know, but I'm off. I've kind of wondered why in your novels, there's relatively little, um, stories, the backstories about the characters. There's some, especially in outreach abroad, we learned something about magnesium. That's just goes weird, but the kind of a little bit in passing or limited, limited to a chapter, I think I had something to do with her, um, her interest in presenting an ideal, an ideal person, and you know, how people get there. Um, just wasn't as interesting to her as, as a novelist, as, um, the question of what they do when they have these reduced and the obstacles that the world what's in their way. So it's complicated, um, uh, there, but that's a good question for, um, some enterprising graduate student, um, to examine the novels and pride and her other words, and trying to answer that question, um, more fully because, um, I'm drawing from memory and discussions, but, um, anyway, that's, that's the best I can do. Um, and answer that question.
Speaker 0 00:31:12 Well, we have some enterprising graduate students in the room, uh, and, uh, if we love to have you ask, uh, professor Kelly a question, or maybe give your view on it. Um, you also have Melanie who is, uh, as I mentioned, has just written her autobiography and is a geriatric social worker. She spawns the stage. So this tap to unmute yourself, figure out how to do that.
Speaker 1 00:31:54 What are you doing that, Melanie? Hi, I'm so glad you joined us.
Speaker 0 00:32:00 So C she's new to, um, to club house. So she's still, there's also another issue with objectivism through the stages of life as we get older, we're not as adaptive technology. Um, but meanwhile, David, I was wondering, you know, you were talking at the top about being somewhat embarrassed that this isn't a topic that had been more fully developed. Um, what do you attribute that to? I mean, is this maybe an exhibit in the case for spoken objectivism and a willingness to develop on some of these ideas further and sort of refine random, write too much about it, then it's not something that we ought to look.
Speaker 1 00:32:53 Yeah, I think it's a, it, I think it's an important topic for the reasons that I was, uh, explaining, uh, at least in summary. And, um, if it's not been worked out by other Objectivists thinkers, well, then we have a job to do. Uh, and you know, the whole idea of open objectivism is Rand was brawl Virginias and skill and amazing insights as a philosopher, you know, w didn't cover every possible topic. So, you know, we still have work to do. And, um, I think objectivism, this is a particularly important topic for, you know, that whole idea of objectivism as a way of life, because understanding life means not just what are the needs of an adult, but how do I get there and how do I deal with the changes, um, over the course of my life and for them out of the lives of the people I care about and my kids and my parents, uh, my friends, my lovers.
Speaker 1 00:33:56 So, um, but it is, um, but I think part of the reason why this is in a somewhat neglected topic is that it's kind of common among more in the major moral philosophies in the history of least in the west, like Aristotle, you read Aristotle's ethics, it's all about if they need and citizen the adult, you know, and even more narrow is sometimes it seems like it's the adult aristocrat. Um, and similarly with conch and similarly with John Stuart mill, I mean, they were writing about what are the standards that apply to human beings. And that is where I think ethics has to start. You can't start saying, what are the ethical principles to child to follow? And now let's figure out, okay, work from there to how you live is all, uh, no, it's got to go the other way around in terms of priorities, but on the other hand, um, we're missing, missing a part of the game here because the whole issue of narratives, for example, that has been a lot of writing in psychology and a lot of, uh, in philosophy as well. And unfortunately, a part of that literature, um, is trying to say our narratives are just are the as much fiction as a novel, because memory is fallible or whatever. Um, we just make up our lives and that I think is a form of post-modern relativism. And subjectivism that, um, needs opposition.
Speaker 4 00:35:48 Thank you. Dated, uh, Melanie. Hi. Yes. I finally figured out how to unmute, uh, David, thank you for this wonderful topic. Uh, I've enjoyed hearing what you have to say. And, um, I will say as a person who is in my late seventies, um, what I have learned is that you really have to start early, uh, to prepare yourself for this stage of life, that your habits of introspection and your habits of reason will come in very handy, um, to navigate, ask, asking who am I right now can be a little difficult when you're, you don't look the same as you used to look, you don't have the physical strength that you used to have, you know, um, it's pretty shocking actually to find that, uh, that things are changing and even cognitively sometimes, uh, they are changing and how can we navigate that? And, um, I think my own habits, uh, not that they're perfect, but I'm glad that I have habits of introspection and, um, self-esteem and they've carried me through.
Speaker 4 00:37:20 But, um, one thing that has been extremely helpful to me is my life review. And I did start a, um, a life review and found, um, that I had a lot to say, and that it became like a nap, a narrative, the story of my life in a way it's the backstory. And just having accomplished that even if no one ever read it was extremely helpful to me to just know, here it is, this is who I am today. And, um, I would encourage anyone, um, to begin this, um, narrative now and keep adding to it because it's very helpful when you are, um, at the stage of life where you know, that you're looking back a lot reminiscing, a lot, all of which is helpful and wonderful, but, um, yeah, I think writing about it is very helpful. Thank you. And now you wrong, right?
Speaker 0 00:38:34 Do your, to do your preparation and also to do your view.
Speaker 4 00:38:40 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:38:43 Yeah, yeah. I'm, uh, Melanie, thank you so much. Um, and you know, it's fascinating what you said about actually writing an autobiography. Um, I thought about that myself, I'm in my early seventies and, uh, you know, um, but then I think, oh my God, I, I don't know even where to start. Um, on the other hand, I've kept a journal half an hour over most of my life, most of my adult life. And I'm wondering if, if you did, likewise, if your honor by graph autobiography was, um, based on journals, you've kept along the way. And I more, more generally, anyone else who, who keeps a journal and why?
Speaker 4 00:39:36 Well, I actually didn't keep a journal. Uh, I did a lot of letter writing over the years. Um, but I would say, um, first of all, I would like to say that, uh, what I wrote is not an autobiography, it's really a memoir, which is different. So it really is just talking about the events in my life that have been most, um, formative and most important to me. And, uh, so it doesn't have, you know, um, it doesn't have every little thing about, uh, about me. And I would say just as I said before, just to, um, start writing about the things in your life that are important and w you know, putting it into a narrative comes later, it's after you've actually just start with the most important event events and write about them, and those are your chapters, and then soon you're stringing them together and there you've got your narrative and you've got your memoir.
Speaker 1 00:40:53 Well, Melanie, you should have given this talk that let the narrative thing down brilliantly. Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:41:03 Okay. Marcia, you had raised your hand next. So if you unmute yourself, which she will also now figure out to do, and while she is doing that, uh, Roger or Roger, please go first. Roger.
Speaker 5 00:41:28 All right. I'll, I'll, I'll try to re uh, David, um, I just, I just read your, a little Wikipedia, and it mentioned that you worked with, with during your graduate school year. Um, he, you know, he of course had a really interesting flip around in university in philosophy departments and out of them and into different plays that all of the plays, and, and I think your bio, your, uh, your bio is, is, you know, in the end of the university and then out, and then out of the objectivist on its way back in. Um, and I, I might hear my question. Here's my question. When I, if you want to talk about Richard at all, that'd be amazing. Um, but, but to wa uh, trying to make a path, you know, having come up through the university system and then trying to do something, you know, outside of it, I just want to hear some of your reflections on that. I personally, uh, went through that. Um, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm through that, and now I'm doing my thing outside the university, um, and the system. So, uh, I, I, if you want to talk about that, that'd be great, or some reflections on Richard,
Speaker 1 00:42:40 Um, yeah. Richard Rorty, for those who are not familiar with the late record Florida, he passed away. Um, I don't know, some years ago, uh, but he was a, uh, one of the probably best known philosophers and a public intellectual, um, as, um, you know, um, and advocate, uh, and increasingly, um, of postmodernism, uh, and a lot of things, even when he was at Princeton and I was his, um, he was my graduate advisor. Um, he was not fully post-modern yet, but, um, you know, his view of, uh, knowledge was very different than mine, but he was also a very good, um, mentor and, um, uh, advisor. Um, he wrote very good letters for me, encouraged. Uh, he didn't agree with my dissertation, but he said it was, it was really good. Um, and so mean he was an honest broker as a teacher, I think later on, he became, um, I kind of lost touch and stop reading a lot anyway.
Speaker 1 00:43:54 Um, but yes, I went into, um, academic philosophy, um, and, um, after 10 years at Vassar college, um, and I went there when I was 25 and, uh, about 10 years later, I did not get tenure and I decided not to stay in that universe. And then, um, just spend time writing and then ultimately start this organization. So, um, those were, I mean, Melanie mentioned the chapters in your life. Exactly. Uh, I could, in that, in that respect, my life breaks down into very clear chapters. Um, I just, I, a certain point I realized I don't want to spend my time, um, keeping up with academic epistemology. I, I, I wasn't getting much good response to the things that was publishing or, uh, and so I just said, okay, um, I don't need that. And, um, I just said, figure it out. I'm going to devote myself to understanding knowledge on my own drums. Um, and one thing led to another. So, um, but I, let me just leave it there. It's, you know, kind of Rudy would be a whole nother topic.
Speaker 0 00:45:26 Marsha, I can put you on mute, uh, but you need to unmute yourself. I've just meet people when they're on stage.
Speaker 6 00:45:36 Okay. You too. Yeah. It's a little confusing cause they have the mute button up by your picture and then they have it way down there. So you have to figure out anyway, I only wanted to make a small point, which was, I was thinking about the question about why random other writers did not, or Aristotle or whatever did not, um, write too much about how people got the way they did, you know, how did the magnetic, this man becomes the way he was or HUD work. And I thought maybe they didn't feel they knew. And so they weren't going to be talking about something that they didn't really know about, you know, they might know about their own experience, but they might not know how anybody else got that way. That's all.
Speaker 1 00:46:23 Uh, thanks Marcia. In Aristotle's case, I, that you, you may be absolutely right. I just a little surprising with Aristotle because, you know, he said we acquire virtue by practicing it and becomes until it becomes second nature. Um, and, but, you know, there was no real, not a lot of psychology, you know, systematic, theoretical, empirical psychology at the time. So yeah, it could be
Speaker 6 00:46:54 Maybe that were in his dialogues
Speaker 1 00:46:58 Maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:46:59 It's also a lot of psycho. There's a lot of psychology in his rhetoric, but it's not about development. So
Speaker 1 00:47:09 Yeah, it has done very extensive reading and led workshops, reading aerosols words. So thank you,
Speaker 0 00:47:20 Roger.
Speaker 7 00:47:23 Oh boy. I might have a bad signal and get the red bar. Can you guys hear me
Speaker 6 00:47:28 Hear
Speaker 7 00:47:28 You? Okay, cool. Uh, so my question is in this arc of life, as, as I, uh, embrace this idea of pursuing, you know, my, my own rational self-interest and, uh, with, with the goalpost of being pursuing happiness, um, some of the time, some of the biggest obstacles to that happiness would be the toxicity that you have with, uh, people that are, are aging, that, that you do care for, uh, but they become an impediment to your happiness. And I would just, uh, love to understand, like, you know, like some thoughts around, uh, is there a level of self sacrifice that you would, uh, accept, uh, and put, put off some of your own, um, you know, happiness in order to, um, I don't know, like, I guess, maintain relationships, you know, with those of your family that, uh, have lost touch with any type of, uh, uh, objective reality and, and are at, are directly impacted impeding that, uh, pursuit of happiness, like, like where do you, is this an exercise of drawing a line somewhere? Or should, should it be an more absolute? No, no, no. My happiness comes first. Uh, and, and all things,
Speaker 1 00:48:51 No, well, I would, that's a very interesting and a hard question. Um, uh, my parents both passed away a while back, but, you know, as they aged, fortunately, I didn't have to deal with Alzheimer's. Um, and either isn't the case. Uh, but I know that that can be a challenge, um, for people whose parents are losing, you know, even that ability. But I, I would say I'm kind of challenged at distinction between drawing a line between, you know, self-interest and sacrifice, or just pursuing self-interest your interest is, um, in involves a hierarchy of values and that hierarchy involves relationship. You have with other people, um, including your parents. I mean, if you, if you had your parents were, you know, good providers and, um, gave you a, you know, a reasonable start in life, um, and not get in the way of your development. Um, I mean, that's really important.
Speaker 1 00:50:01 That's, that's, um, that's a big part of your, of the story of your life, where you came from. And, um, so it's kind of natural to feel attached to your parents and still in touch with them. And I think as I, in my life, I found it as I got older, you know, when I was young, I just left home. I was glad to be on my own. And, uh, you know, I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about my family, the family I came from, but, uh, got older. I began to appreciate, you know, things they gave me and, um, you know, that also had time in my hierarchy of values too. Um, but more to them, uh, I think he had it's it's, it is a choice, but it's a choice about things you value. I don't think you should ever sacrifice in the literal sense of giving up a higher value for the sake of a lower one or non value.
Speaker 1 00:51:06 But I think you should be, um, rational in, in thinking about what you do, and if that includes other people and promote virtually all of us, it does. I mean, I, I won't say virtually for all of us, it does. Um, then your parents are among them ones that you are devoting your time and effort to, um, let me put it in from a different angle a little bit. The one, I think this is actually something rents at somewhere. The one currency that you have to spend as a living, being as a human living being is, or time that's, it never come back, you know, the old, the humorous statement, oh God, that's an hour. I wasted an hour with someone in eyes and I have to tell them, you know, that's an hour, I'll never get back. Sorry. Uh, but the, uh, that is, it there's truth in that. And your allocation of time is, is the measure of, and, but should be driven by your sense of what, what values are most important to you, what the hierarchy is what's most important next important down to least important.
Speaker 0 00:52:36 Thanks, David. Yeah, I mean, Roger, the way I think of it is, um, it is not just the pleasure that you get directly from somebody's company, but it's also the pleasure that you get by being adjusted person and remembering, uh, the debts in a way that you have to people that invested time and care. Um, even when you weren't, you know, fully rational, fully conscious, and we're paying that just gives you a sense of self-esteem and also, um, being a good example for others, you know, for, for your children, for, for others in your community, um, of the kind of person that you think virtuous and that, uh, you think the world would be a better place if other people behaved in that way. So modeling that kind of, that others, uh, caring for, you know, parents or others that may not, you know, may not always be super fun to be around. Um, so anyway, that's, those are my 2 cents Brian Brian's gone. Okay. Well, we have just a few more minutes left if there's anybody else that wants to chime in. Okay, go ahead, Brian. Brian, Brian's back, but I can't hear him. Can you, David?
Speaker 1 00:54:37 No, I can't
Speaker 0 00:54:39 Bummer. All right. Well, uh, as we kind of round out these last few minutes, David, any closing thoughts?
Speaker 1 00:54:50 Well, I think this is, um, initially I was saying, saying earlier that there's a, you know, a huge literature in psychology on studies that would light up I've spanned, but that's empirical. It's studying how people are. And regardless of whether they make good or bad choices, objectivism bring, gives us a sense of standards, uh, for making the good choices. And it's an normative standard. And for those of us who, you know, the community of us who had, you know, embraced that, um, ethical system, um, you know, there's, there's a lot we philosophers have to learn from, um, you know, th the experience of, uh, lots of other thoughtful people. So I would encourage people to think about this. You know, I, I love what Melanie said about her, you know, the way she, um, uh, developed the memoir of her life and the value that had her. I think that's a great idea. Um, it would be interesting to see some of them, uh, you know, if they're not too private, so, um, but I've encouraged people to think about this and, uh, I hope we'll have more development, more talk more, um, hopefully I'll be able to write something or, uh, someone will, um, on the subject, because I think it's, uh, it's a useful development of the, um, uh, to make the objective ascetics and even better philosophy for living on.
Speaker 0 00:56:36 Thank you, David. Thank you, Melanie. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Marcia. Thank you, Brian. Even though he didn't get to hear from you, thank you to the Rodgers. Thank you, Jayla pear. And, uh, thanks. Especially to the donors in this room that, uh, that make our work possible. I'm going to wish all of you a very Merry Christmas happy holiday, and we will be back next week on Tuesday. So hope to see you then. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:57:10 Merry Christmas and happy new year.
