“Humility vs. Pride” with Kelley & Salsman

Speaker 0 00:00:00 Great. Can you hear me, David? Uh, great to be with you again. Yep. David and I have spent, I, I, wonderful. Uh, as we usually do, David and I have spent wonderful hours together talking about this ahead of time. And of course, we, David, if I had to, if you remember, I think we identified this at least a month or more ago, but I'm, I wanted to just say upfront, I, I'm going to defer to the great David Kelly tonight. This is philosophy, this is a virtue. This is his area. But I just wanted to give you the background as to where the, how this came up, because it was little old me as a political economist who said to David Kelly one night, what about pride in the objectivist, uh, seven pro, uh, seven virtues? And, and in, in a self confessional, I said something like, why is it seventh? Speaker 0 00:00:50 Why is it really, why is it sitting there at the end? And why did she say one time, it's a sum of all the virtues? And I knew this was my problem, not anybody else's, but I said something I think a lot of objectives might also say, which is something like, is this really a virtue in the sense of it actively commends us to do something in order to achieve something, in order to get some value, versus, and if you look in the literature, it exists, and even in the objectivist literature, the idea that, well, it's a feeling of some kind. It's a result of having achieved stuff, you know, say with the other six virtues. So everyone notices, they'll say, I feel very proud of what I've achieved. And but notice how that's passive and notice how it's passed. It's backward looking. And yet the virtues in objectivism are supposed to be tools, means to an end or a, a set of ends, some value to achieve. Speaker 0 00:02:00 And then what is that for pride? If pride is truly a virtue, and not just any old virtue, but among the seven, nine rand named let's expl, can we explore this issue of passive versus active past versus future? What are we really trying to achieve here? What is pride? And, you know, kind of in the objectivist tradition of Let's chew, let's chew these concepts and see what we can come up with that might be more, um, you know, uh, illuminating than what's already in the literature. So, with that, David, I hope you don't mind me giving that little intro, because it was really, I, I'm responsible for this, uh, <laugh> in many ways, these questions that are floating about. But, and, and David and I kind of set it up as well as we usually do, what is pride? What does it try to achieve? What does Rand mean by moral ambitiousness? What are the misconceptions and caricatures, you know, the kind of cartoonish caricatures of pride? And then also, you know, as a secondary issue, what is its antithesis? Is it humility? Is it shame? What is it? And, uh, what do you think? David, where do you wanna start? You wanna start with just what it is or how it plays a role in Rand's ethics? Speaker 1 00:03:19 Well, actually, Richard, uh, I, I appreciate that intro because, uh, you, it's, it's a perfect segue into where I wanted to start. Uh, and that is with the, uh, pride, uh, as a feeling. Yeah. It's also a virtue, and that's gonna be our main topic. But, uh, pride is, is, you know, we recognize it as a feeling and it kind of a pass a reaction to something we've done. And, and in that sense, passive, but it's also an active, as a virtue, it's very active. And I'll, um, I'll try, I'll get to that. But let's start with the feelings, uh, because that's where, you know, we, we, you know, when we introspect, we can, um, identify, we, we, we can get a handle on what we're talking about in the first place, and then move from, from the, the experience to the, um, moral principles. So I would say, think of a time when you felt proud, um, proud over something. It could be a promotion at work. Um, could be your wedding day when you kind to, not, it could be an act of bravery or integrity that you're proud of. You know, you rose to that occasion. What is that feeling? Speaker 1 00:04:44 I think at the essence, at the, at the root, if you, if we could put it into words what the feeling is, and feelings are not words, but they, they reflect underlying, um, um, attitudes that we can formulate. I'd say the essence is the feeling. I did that and it was good. You need both things. That was good. But it was not an accident. I did it. I get credit for that. It was good. It was that, that aspect could be, you know, think of other comparable, uh, terms. Like, it, it was good. It was earned, it was worthy, whatever. It's, and that's it. That's, I think of the essence of the feeling of pride. And as we'll see, it's important for the virtue as well. Now, think of a time when you felt humility. Hmm. Okay. It might be a case where we, well, something we would describe as humility. Speaker 1 00:05:51 You look up to a great hero or achievement and say, oh my God, that is wonderful. I couldn't do that, but I admire it. Hmm. Or you did something you wrong and you feel shame about it. Or you were exposed or something. You know, something you wanted to keep private, was exposed publicly, and you just feel shamed. Um, now notice a difference in my two examples. The first example is that healthy admiration. It doesn't diminish your sense of self or self-esteem. It's, you know, you're looking up to someone, but not, that doesn't diminish you. It elevates you in a way. The second example, though, um, it does diminish your sense of self. It might be as, as severe as a feeling of shame. I feel ashamed of that. Speaker 1 00:06:49 Now, it's relevant here to interject, um, shame and has been studied extensively in, in psychological literature for decades, if not centuries. Yeah. And, um, it's often, um, compared with, uh, guilt. And this difference is morally significant, I think. And will I, I will come back to it in good time, but guilt is a feeling of regret about some particular action to parallel what we said about pride. It was, it was, it was the awareness that was wrong, and I did it. I'm responsible. So I feel the guilt, but it's over a particular thing, particular action. Shame is a deeper feeling. It, in that most psychologists would say, involves a more encompassing view of the self. It's a feeling about one's whole self, I am unworthy. I'm no good. Um, and that I think is a clue to the meaning of humility. But I want to get to the, um, the ethics. Now, uh, Speaker 0 00:08:01 David, David, before you go to the ethics, let me just say that, um, let as to the feeling, um, we know that Objectivism says, well, listen, feelings are not tools of cognition. They also can't be the guide by which we're moral. So pride seems to me very interesting because if you, if you look at all the other virtues, we don't often think of feeling, we don't often think of, um, well, I feel, I'm feeling honest. Uh, today, I'm so, so glad I'm feeling honest. <laugh>, I'm feeling, I'm feeling integrity today. It pride is so interesting 'cause you do feel it. How, but I, what I just wanted to say to the, one of the interesting things about what you just said, David, is consistent with the objectivist view. That feelings come from our more, our intellectual premises, our ideas. You took each feeling, you took those examples, and then you induced what must have been true for you to actually feel that. Speaker 0 00:09:02 And that is your pathway. I can tell you're going there. That is your pathway to saying, okay, now let's see why it's a virtue. Because you name things like, I gotta a promotion at work. I found the love of my life. I'm in a wedding. Or I active heroism or something. I was thinking of something like, well, counter examples would be, I just won the lottery. Why does no one say, I am proud I won the lottery? Because they know it's random. They know that yes, they did buy the ticket. So they have some agency, but it lacks the idea of pri because you didn't do it. And I really like that, David. 'cause in both cases, you're, you're inducing where we get this. You say, well, why would I feel I feel pride? 'cause I did that, not just that I authored it. Um, and I get credit for it. Speaker 0 00:09:55 By the way, every time I hear credit, I think of the end of movies where they roll the what, <laugh>. Yeah. They roll, they roll the credits. Why do they do that? They're honoring the people who made the movie. I don't like the fact actually that credits have become inflated over the years. If you look at a 1940 movie, the credits have like 17 people <laugh>. And today it has 17, it has 1700 people. That's a se that's a separate issue. But you know what I'm saying, David, the method by which you're trying to infer what pride is and, and recognizing this feeling, but then moving to, okay, let's get to the issue, which is, why is it a virtue? I like the method you used because you're not, you're acknowledging it is a feeling, but let's under this is a way to introspect and ask people, why do you feel that way? And why is it genuine in some cases, or not really genuine in others? Anyway, I just wanted to notice that. Speaker 1 00:10:50 Well, thank you, Richard. Uh, that's exactly why I'm starting here, because we all have experience. We all, you know, are live our lives, and we have the feelings we do. And pride, humility, shame, guilt, uh, are things that most people are familiar with. Ethics is more abstract, but it's, um, in a way it's important because it, it takes the underlying, um, beliefs that underlying emotions and are expressed in the form, in emotional form. Um, but also isolates them and asks, are they true? Are they false? Mm. What what are those beliefs? Um, and so let's articulate them. And that is the great, I think, uh, advantage of, of ethics, uh, and a philosophy in general, but of ethics in this case in particular. So, um, but I want, let, let me move on. They, you know, the terms, pride, humility, uh, name feelings as I was saying, but they also name character C traits. Speaker 1 00:11:58 They name practices of that have moral significance. And that is, um, our chief topic. So historically, um, many ethical codes have condemned pride as a deadly sin, and it espoused humility as a virtue. This is, uh, particularly true in religious moral codes. Um, I'm most familiar with Christianity and to a lesser extent with, uh, Islam. But I, I think it's generally true. Humility is the, uh, in Christianity anyway, and I think in Islam as well. Uh, humility is the, is the quote unquote recognition of that. One is sinful, one's fallen nature, and one's inferiority to God. Um, I could give you many quotes. Uh, I'll just, I'll give one that is one of the starkest things I've ever found. This is from St. Bernard writing in, uh, uh, the 11th century, uh, sorry, 12th century. Uh, in an often quoted statement, he said, humility is a virtue by which a man knowing himself as he truly is a bases himself. Mm. Speaker 1 00:13:21 And wow. On the other hand, pride is regarded as sinful, uh, that because it's de view of oneself as adequate, competent, worthy, and therefore not needing God, not, you know, the proper view is you are lowly because you are infinitely inferior to God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and depended on him for any good that you do. Um, there was a modern, uh, one of, one of the things I used to use when I taught ethics was, uh, a book by, by c s Lewis called Mere Christianity. This was in around 1950 or so. Yeah. And, um, he would said that, um, uh, well, uh, the, the no o utmost pride, the essential advice is, um, is pride. But I'll, I, I can, I can go into that more if, if people want. But I, I also wanna say that, uh, like many other religious, uh, parts of religious morality, this view of pride and humility has been secularized. Speaker 1 00:14:33 Um, yeah, altruism has been secularized too. You know, you know, you, you're invocations that it's really good to help others and really bad to be selfish. And that's coming from people who, you know, don't have a religious bone in their body. But it's just part of the, that ethic. Uh, ultimately, uh, religious ethic has been secularized in grace ways. Um, I mean, you can see this very easily. The shorthand way of seeing it is, um, in standard definitions. Dictionaries typically provide defined humility in contrast with, uh, pride and arrogance. Humility is the absence of pride and arrogance, and which are, in turn, pride is conceived as excessive self regard. A sense of il superiority humility involves meekness, modesty, deference, lowly ranked awareness of one's failings, a sense of inferiority. Um, I can give you examples from any di di di dictionaries, but that is the sum that you find if you look in, uh, dictionaries. Now that that's not religious, it's just a definition of a term that is widely embraced in secular, um, circles. Yeah. Now, okay, onto the objectivist view. Objectivism rejects this view of, uh, humility and pride completely, both the religious and the secular versions. For objectivism pride is a major virtue, and humility is a moral failing of vice. So, let me give you a quick summary, A quick Cook's tour, so to speak, of, uh, the objectives view developed by a rand and developed by others, um, of pride, starting with pride. Speaker 0 00:16:26 David, I just want to interject quickly, not just not a virtue of vice. She's saying humility is not just, you know, I reject it as one of the virtues. She's going the other way and saying, it is vicious to, yes. Okay. I just wanted to, I just wanted to emphasize that. Go ahead. Speaker 1 00:16:47 That's right. Thank you, Richard. That's a good, that's a very good point. And it's essential, uh, humility is a vice, not a virtue. Um, so what is pride? I'm gonna give you the definition that I developed with William Thomas. In our work, the logical structure of Objectivism. The definition is pride is a commitment to achieve self-esteem by taking credit and responsibility for acting on one's own judgment in accordance with moral principles. Now, that's a lot. So let's unpack it, uh, step by step. First of all, pride is a virtue. And like all other virtues, it is a means to an end. It's a means to achieving some value in the, in the case of pride, the end, the value it aims at is self-esteem. That is a value. Why? Well, first of all, what is it and why is it such a value? I'm gonna quote from Nathaniel Brandon, the psychologist, uh, who says, self-esteem is the disposition to experience oneself as confident, to cope with the basic challenges of life and as worthy of life. So, those two elements, which Rand also cited in, um, in her, uh, statements about pride or self-esteem, confidence to cope with the challenges of life and worthiness of happiness. Speaker 1 00:18:25 We need self-esteem to have a full sense of ourselves as ends in ourselves. People without self-esteem, we cannot fully value themselves as the object of their actions. And in seeking the, their best life. Pride is a means of establishing self-esteem, because self-esteem has to be earned. It doesn't come automatically. We're not born with it. It doesn't come, uh, naturally in from anything except ultimately our own actions and commitment to achieving it. It has to be earned. And pride is the commitment to earn it. How? By acting morally, by practicing rationality, integrity, justice to other people, and the other virtues, uh, the other more, more principles that are part of a rational national egoism, egoistic in this way, uh, as Rand said, pride is the sum of the virtues. Um, I, I think what you meant is that it's, there are certain virtues that we can derive as necessary to promote, uh, a human life as a rational animal, as a, as a human being. Speaker 1 00:19:49 And those include rationality, integrity, honesty, and, and a number of others. Pride is the overriding, or some of those that when you live in accordance with those principles, or when you, first of all, you commit to living in accordance with those principles, then you, um, are, um, earning the self-esteem, which you can only earn by acting in a productive manner. A manner that is, um, leads to a sense of self-worth and competence. Now, one thing that's interesting, um, except I think pride has two, two different focal points, looking backward and looking forward in time, pride in what's passed means taking credit for one's specific achievements and Paus to recognize oneself with, I did it, like I was saying before, when you feel pride, I feel I did it. And this is good. That is truly the essence of pride as a recognition of what you have achieved. Speaker 1 00:21:02 It means taking credit at for, um, for what you have done as a self-made being for one's accomplishments, but also very importantly for one's character. Character is the basis of self-esteem. It's what you take pride in. When you take pride in yourself, in your, in your very being in who you are, um, over and above. And, um, you know, any particular achievements or any particular, um, you know, wins or, you know, even, even something as important as a wedding or, um, uh, an act of bravery. Those happen at a moment. But, um, pride is a commitment to, to acting consistently or to taking credit for those moments as reflections of who you are. Speaker 1 00:21:54 So that's looking backward, looking forward. Pride is a commitment to continually seeking to act in that, in accordance with your principles or your moral principles, seeking your best life, your best self by continuing to practice those virtues. This is what Rand called moral ambitiousness. You use it as a kind of definition or shorthand for, for, um, what self-esteem is. I, I, in my definition, I would add that that's a forward-looking perspective. We're ambitious for being something, creating something, doing something. Yeah. But, um, I think the past take, uh, focus of taking credit people who, who never take credit, who just killed themselves and maybe achieve great things, but never stop and say, that was good and I did it, are missing something and not, not fully able to appreciate the self that they've created, uh, or the, what they're recognizing. And I think, Speaker 0 00:23:00 David, David, if I might, uh, before we, it sounds like you're gonna go into moral ambitiousness, which is so, so important, so unique. I think to Rand, before we do though, you said something very interesting, just wanted to ask you, David, and, um, for the audience, I didn't ask this from David privately, so I don't, I don't wanna blindside you here, David, um, is, as an epistemologist put your epistemologist hat on. Is this idea of, is this idea of looking backward and kind of inventorying, that's not a word, but ha gathering an inventory of things you've done, is that really important? It sounds like it is. So this is a rhetorical I a little bit, it's, it's, it's interesting 'cause no one goes back and says, let's look at all the ways I've been just, or independent or productive. And they, we do do that. Speaker 0 00:23:58 But it seems like in pride, it's really important to look back and say, when have I been proud and why? And that as a, uh, re as a basis for saying, I know how to do this in the future now because I've seen the cause and effect in the past, these two aspects of pride. David, looking back, taking credit, then looking forward, taking responsibility, the connection between the two is so fascinating. 'cause it's almost like if you have no examples in your history, and everyone has some examples of pride, you're kind of saying, you need an inductive approach to this. You need to start with recognizing what you've done and then saying, man, I'd like to do that a lot of times. How can I proliferate that feeling by looking in the future and treating it as a virtue? Uh, I'm speaking weirdly here, but you understand my question. Speaker 1 00:25:02 I, I do. Yeah. Uh, uh, and it's true. You know, I, and just as I don't remember what I had for breakfast on September, uh, 25th, you know, 1973, um, I don't remember all the things I did that were, um, I would consider to be, you know, reflective of my character. But, you know, it, there is a, you know, all the virtues, all the values that we seek, um, are oriented toward life. And by life we mean the entire extent of a human being's life. So you are at a given moment in your life, a given point in time. Um, and when we're younger, we focus is mainly on the future. Um, when we get older, <laugh>, and I can speak from experience here, we think back to, okay, what has my life meant? What is, what has been in its meaning? And, uh, did I live up to my standards? Speaker 1 00:26:06 And so there's, but it's, it's, it's all one piece. It's, we, we actually have had some discussions, um, among the scholars about what I, what I call the arc of life. Yeah. How, how your sense of life can change as you proceed through a life. But the point is here is that, you know, the past is, is is maybe past and the future may not be here yet, but they're both parts of your life, and they're both parts of your consciousness of yourself, the both parts of yourself in a way. So I think, you know, I can think back and say, what, what tends to set out looking backwards are the exceptions. Oh my God, I, did I do that? Oh, how could I have done that? Or, or, you know, on the positive side, that was really great. Yeah. You know, I, right, Speaker 0 00:27:02 Right. And don't you notice that it was with the passing of age, and you and I are go both getting older, that you essentialize it to the point of, well, I'm really proud of like, you know, like three main things. It's not gonna be, you know, 33 things. Although the 33 things Yeah. Contributed, did contribute. The, the, the subsidiary things that we did that we're proud of, that led to whatever our career, our major book, our wonderful friends, our wonderful Marriage, they, they have tributaries into the stream, but with the passage of time, one of the nice things about the passage of time is you essentialize it, and you have to say, I mean, if you said to anybody today, name the three things you're most proud of in your life, that's gonna have to be an essentialized answer that can't not be minutiae. And, um, uh, anyway, thank you for that, Dan. That's a interesting, okay. I don't wanna stop you. Go ahead. Speaker 1 00:28:03 No, that's a good point. And it's, it's like, you know, one of the questions they ask, they, they ask in some self-help and, um, therapy sessions is what, what do you want said about you at your, um, you know, when you pass away and they have a memorial service or, uh, right. What do you, your Speaker 0 00:28:21 Tombstone? Yeah. Or write your own obituary. I love, I like actually, like those exercises. Do you, do you, or do you think those are contrived? Speaker 1 00:28:29 No, I think they're, they're, they're, they're a way of getting out the essence of Yeah. Speaker 0 00:28:34 Focusing your mind, Speaker 1 00:28:35 Al Speaker 0 00:28:36 I do, I do too. I think I agree with that. Yeah. Write your own obituary. What do you, not what do you wanna be known for in the sense of second handedness, but what, what, what are you doing with your life? And when it ends, and it might end tomorrow, sum it up for me right now. And when people do that, they'll often say, oh my God, I'm doing the wrong thing right now, i's wasting my time on something right now, and I need to change. That's right. Yeah. Anyway, I'm sorry, Dave. Go ahead, David. Speaker 1 00:29:04 That's a whole nother topic. We could, uh, actually do clubhouse on <laugh>. Yeah. I miss the currency of life, <laugh>. So, but let, let me just, uh, on the, the topic of moral ambitiousness, uh, Richard, you made a great point in our conversations that, um, the term, think about the term ambitiousness, normally that's not used in, in, um, regard to self or virtue or, you know, any of these ethical things. It's, it's used to a career ambitions what you want in your career. Yeah. Or if you're starting out on a project, I wanna, I want this project to succeed, you know, a new piece of software or whatever. Speaker 0 00:29:46 Right. Speaker 1 00:29:47 But what it brings out, and, and it's, and, and I appreciate this more in, you know, from that conversation we had, um, why Rand chose that term term because the self is just as much a product of our actions as any achievement in the world. Speaker 0 00:30:08 I love that. Speaker 1 00:30:09 And she had this wonderful statement, uh, in, in, in Atla shrugged somewhere that as man is a being of self-made wealth. So he is a being of self-made soul Speaker 0 00:30:21 Great and addition, it's Speaker 1 00:30:23 Exactly the right term to use in both contexts. Speaker 0 00:30:26 Yep. Speaker 1 00:30:28 So Speaker 0 00:30:28 I wanna just, uh, and, and by the way, Atlas is full of, this is a, a total whole book. Volumes could be written on this. David Atlas is full of the use of commercial metaphors, gaining, profiting by, if you go the wrong way, you're morally bankrupt. One of the most fascinating things about Rand is she used, she uses business and financial and commercial terms to, to describe moral virtues and vices. And it's so, it's so uniquely heard. No one has ever done that. But I just wanted to interject that. But go ahead. Speaker 1 00:31:09 That's a great point. I never thought of that, Richard. You should write that article. <laugh>. That's an economist <laugh>. Speaker 0 00:31:15 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:31:17 Um, alright. I, we have a lot of questions, uh, that, uh, I know Richard is, has been thinking a lot about as well as, as well as, as I have. But I, I wanna just say hopefully from this overall perspective, it should be clear that from this framework, that pride and self-esteem, what they are not, they are not comparative or competitive. That is, I'm, my self-esteem is a judgment about myself. It is my judgment. It is, um, not because I'm better than anyone else, or I, if I'm, if someone is better than I'm, I look up to them and admire them. But it doesn't diminish me. Uh, as I was saying before, if anything, it elevates me by being able to recognize, uh, you know, something ex in the, in the world, um, that is valuable. And I might well feel gratitude to live in a central world. Speaker 1 00:32:20 But, um, it's not that I am better than you. It's that I am what I am, and I have acted and built myself around standards that I accept. And only the only thing that matters is have I lived up to my own standards. Not that they're subjective. I mean, I have to have good reasons for my standards, but they don't come from other people. And, uh, and by the same token, pride, uh, is not arrogance or superiority. You know, that's often the definition. Uh, we people talk about, you know, we should, you know, be humble or, you know, sometimes humble humility is used in a, in a very de detoxified way, uh, if I can put it that way, detoxified from religious, uh, abase self amazement, um, to say, well, you know, don't be arrogant. Um, you know, you're just one, one among many people. Speaker 1 00:33:21 So, um, and it's, this is usually brought out in business con in social context, including business. Um, and arrogance is, is a human failing. I mean, there are, there are people who, um, have an inflated sense of their, um, their abilities, their, their scope of their knowledge. There's the, the, the, um, accuracy of their judgment. And we'll get to this in a, a little bit. I think, Richard, you wanted to ask about cognitive humility, which I'm, I'm gonna leave it to you to raise that question if you, if you're, if you wanna do that, but yes, of course. Um, arrogance, arrogance, um, is why be arrogant. I mean, I, I'm, I'm pr if arrogance just if is, if it's just another name for PR pride, um, in the way that Howard Rourke, for example, was often described by others as arrogant because he didn't care that much of what they thought about him. Um, well, that's a virtue. But, um, if arrogance means learning it over others and, um, uh, treating them as inferior, it's, it's, that's not pride. That is a kind of social dependence. Um, and so is being the idea of self-esteem as dependent on others, esteeming you. Speaker 0 00:34:46 Yeah. Right. Um, yeah. Which is not the objective as view. Speaker 1 00:34:51 Exactly. I mean, think of the self, um, some decades ago anyway, there was a kind of a movement in the, in schools, uh, K 12 education. Yeah. Uh, we've gotta build self-esteem. Yeah. Which, which we do by saying, oh, everyone's special. They all get stars or whatever. And, uh, we find a way to make them, um, feel good about themselves and their achievements not feel good about themselves as individuals or worthy of their own, um, self-care and, and, and, and, um, you know, conviction to learning and improving their lives. No. It's just, they feel good because we've, we praise them. Speaker 0 00:35:32 Yeah. So the rational, so the rational, Randy and Randy, I don't wanna say brand conception of self-esteem as, uh, internal, if you will earned using man's mind for self-efficacy and self propulsion was taken over by the altruists who believe that others perceptions of you are the source of your self-esteem. If so, it's odd. 'cause on the one hand they said, oh, um, yeah, you've convinced us self-esteem is important. How do we do this? We tell the kids they're really valuable, even if they're not, we tell the kids they're, they're wonderful and they're, they're snowflakes and no one's like you, even though they're not, it's unearned. And they totally miss the point completely. It's so sad, David, you know, because conservatives to this day will mock the, uh, self-esteem movement, I think because Oh, of course. Yeah. I think, I think 'cause they're predispose predisposed to thinking pride is a sin and selfishness is evil, but it's so sad that that movement, we, we need to recapture that movement, the self-esteem movement, don't we? Speaker 0 00:36:42 And say that it's not Yeah. Other, it's not outside. It's not other. And you and I talked about the various, um, kind of caricatures of pride. And I think we noticed that if you go through them, they almost all entail other, or what we would call altruism of, of preoccupation with others. So for example, vanity, it is pride, really vanity. What is vanity? Yeah. What you, what you think of in the eyes of others that's other is, that's not objectiveism, that's egoism. That's ultra other arrogant, boastful. W why is someone boastful? They're boasting to other people. Yeah. They needs the locker room talk. Right. But that's other is, that isn't internal bragging. Uh, super sillus haughty, uh, overconfident and an attitude of superior al almost every case, David, I think you and I found of caricatures or cartoonist conceptions of pride. How interesting that they all seem to, uh, boil down to preoccupation with what other people thought of you, which is not objectivism. Speaker 1 00:37:58 Right. All of those des um, uh, conceptions and descriptions of pride would apply perfectly to Peter Keating in the head. Hmm. Speaker 0 00:38:09 Right. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:38:11 And the point of the fountain head, he, he is, he has no self. Hmm. Uh, he's self-conscious enough to realize that at some point and regret it. So he is not the worst case. Um, but still, it's, uh, uh, yeah, it's all alm it's second handedness down the road. I mean, I, I like Brandon and, uh, the six pillars of self-esteem had a nice way of putting it. I think he said, self-esteem is an intimate experience. It resides in the core of what's being, it is what I think and feel about myself, not what someone else thinks or feels about me. Speaker 0 00:38:52 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:38:54 I think absolutely easy. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:38:56 And, and David, when you thought, when you, when you talked about, um, the virtues are paraphrasing a little bit here, so forgive me, the virtues are tools or means by which we achieve our values. And the three cardinal objectives, values are reason, purpose, the self, uh, is, it should be so obvious to people that pride is one of the virtues by which we gain the self, if you will, or gain an appreciation of the self or ways to cultivate and enhance and embolden the self. Um, and that's very unconventional. That is not a conventional view. But I but isn't, you also mentioned, and she mentioned this a couple of times too, so how would you rank these, David, that we're using this virtue? We need to be really attentive to this virtue because we're building, cultivating, expanding our self-esteem, which is itself a value, a, uh, but also our moral character. Speaker 0 00:40:03 But I would throw in a third thing, and I wonder what you think of this. I don't know, something like this is not in the objectivists literature, something like a third thing, so self-esteem or moral character. But number three would be something like, I don't know, something like fortitude to handle, set setbacks, fortitude to handle, um, um, hardships. I, I'm aware of this because suicide rates are rising among teens, rising among vets. And I wonder whether some of this is an inability to handle, it's not just, I'm not flourishing, I don't have a sufficient self-esteem. It's, I can handle setbacks because I think people think that the proud person and the objectivist and the is like moving ever forward and onward and upward. And you know, and, and it's almost like the standard is you shall never fail and you win every victory and you're get every promotion, and you know what I mean, David? Speaker 0 00:41:08 And we know that's not life. Yeah. We know that's not life. But here's the key. And Rourke was in the quarry, right? She has in the fountainhead, Rourke is in a goddamn quarry blasting rock, which is his, you know, the lowest thing he could be doing. But he's still doing it, and he still expects to be building skyscrapers and be at the top of them, you know, at the end of the movie. So, a couple of thoughts from you on, what do you think about this idea of, and it's, it immunizes you from setbacks or, you know, cratering at the slightest, uh, setback because people are, seem very fragile today. It's not just that we can't get them to think about being morally ambitious and build and grow, and it's that, hey, you can handle setbacks. Speaker 1 00:42:02 Yeah. I think that's a, that's a great point, Richard. And, um, um, it's actually one that Brandon emphasizes that self-esteem, um, functions, uh, partly as an i immune system against to carry you through the bad times. Hmm. Wow. To fight off the, um, psychological down points in life. And, you know, most of us have them. And Objectiveism, it does not deny that. Certainly if you read Rand's novels, uh, think of Dagney after Francisco left her when they were young lovers. Yeah. Um, yeah. Right. And it took her years to kind of recover and gain her equilibrium. Um, but, Speaker 0 00:42:50 You know, and, and again, and David, even the hero gault, not to give away plot spoilers here, you say to yourself, well name one iron hero that never has setbacks. They might say, gult really? Gault had to quit. Yeah. The 20th century motor company. Whereas if the mo, if the 20th century motor company had not been taken over by the Starns family, right. Hi. His engine would've been, uh, used exalted. You know, Harold did. That's a, that was a real setback. That's why he quit. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:43:24 Not to mention living in a Garrick for 12 years, Speaker 0 00:43:27 <laugh>. Right. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:43:31 In the city part of Manhattan. Anyway, yeah. So, um, no, that's a very good point. And I think, um, just to finish up, I, I'll, I'll make just a note about, um, I think it's obvious from what we've been talking about, that humility is not something to seek or value or practice. Um, I would say the opposite of pride as a feeling is shame, but humility is the opposite of pride as a virtue. Wow. And I wanna read something from Rand, which I think is very illuminating, uh, in this context. It's from the Ein Rand letter, um, called the, the article is called Moral Inflation Part two. She says, self-abasement is the antithesis of morality and self-abasement is the essence of the practice of humility. If a man is acted immorally but regrets it and wants to atone for it, it is not self-abasement that prompts him. But some rem remnant of love for moral values, and it is not self-abasement that he expresses, but a longing to regain his self-esteem. Humility is not a recognition of one's failings, but a rejection of morality. I am no good is a statement that may be uttered only in the past tense to say, I am no good is to declare, and I never intend to be any better. Speaker 0 00:45:07 Oh. Which is the opposite of moral ambitiousness. Speaker 1 00:45:12 Exactly. It's Speaker 0 00:45:13 Like the pers it's the person in the, you know, repetitive motion job. And, and he's whining and complaining. I'm like, I'm bored, and, uh, I'm alienated, and, and Mark's told me, but, and you say, well, why don't you seek a promotion? Why don't you build a career? Uh, I don't really want to. It's not really my, I love that, David, that, uh, when we talk privately, I poses this question to you and, and, you know, like, is the antithesis of pride, humility, or shame? This is brilliant. I never thought of it as well, you've already talked about it has a feeling component, but also a virtue component. And humility, really, is that the antithesis? Because it's on the level of virtue versus vice, Speaker 1 00:46:00 Right? It's Speaker 0 00:46:02 Practice. Yeah. I love that. And, and we do feel shame sometimes. And you're saying that's the feeling, that's the opposite of feeling proud. I love that, David. That's very, my gosh, that's very illuminating. Before we go to Thank you, before we go to questions, I did wanna bring up you, and I know a lot of thinkers over the years, this is epistemology, but I think it relates to pride. They, they say, okay, you're not infallible. You're not omni omniscient. You need to practice cognitive humility. I, I bring it up only because we are talking about pride versus humility. But what's what's interesting about, and this is their phrase, not ours, you know that David, what do they mean by cognitive humility? And does it even, is this even tangentially related to moral humility? Speaker 1 00:46:58 It's related etymologically and, um, in, in, in the history of, of moral thinking. Um, I think it's, it's a completely, you know, bogus concept. Um, because cognitive humility means recognizing, I mean, the typical formulation of it as a, you know, a practice that would be good if more people practice it, of recognizing the limits of your knowledge, recognizing that you are fallible, um, that other people may have ideas that are, um, worth incorporating into your thinking. Yeah. Um, if they, if they make sense and someone and so forth. So it's against cognitive arrogance, like, and which is based on an implicit assumption. I'm omniscient or I'm infallible. Well, any, you know, we epistemologically it's, it's, it's a basic aspect of certainly the objective is epistemology, but I would say of of any, um, uh, coherent theory of knowledge, of course, we are not on mission and we are not infallible. Speaker 1 00:48:19 We're capable of making mistakes. That's why we need epistemology in the first place to, um, distinguished between good arguments and bad arguments, uh, true conclusions and false ones. But, um, and that's, so the proper name for this is objectivity. I'm being objective, objective in, in recognizing that reality is what it is. And I can be objective only if I'm open to all evidence, including the, the, um, uh, the possibility that I have overlooked something or have made a mistake in reasoning that's objectivity, to call it humility, um, is says in effect, well, we're not arrogant, so we have to be a little skeptical. We're not a mission, so we have to be a little skeptical. Um, healthy dose of skepticism, you know, toward ourselves is the proper view. No, it's just, it's one of those false dichotomies. Um, that's, it's like in ethics, being arrogant or being humble, um, being overbearing toward others or being meek and, and, and, and, uh, you know, uh, the obedient, Speaker 0 00:49:38 Yeah. So, so, so the, the, the language we hear things like, um, don't be so sure of yourself or why, why you're taking things too seriously. The the too seriously thing is very common among parents will say that to kids. You're, you're taking yourself too seriously. Oh, um, you know, that David be, you know, be humble. But, but, but also, you know, politically, um, Hayek and others, Hayek's last book was called, um, the Fatal Conceit. Right? So conceit is another word for, you know, caricaturing, uh, confidence or pride. Interestingly, the fatal conceit, according to Hayek, was an undue confidence in the power of reason. And his theory was an implo, a plausible theory actually. But think of this, his theory was, the more certain we are, the more likely we're gonna be dictators. If you are so sure of yourself, uh, you're gonna be inclined to tell people what to do to lord over them, to mandate, dictate decree to them. Speaker 0 00:50:49 So <laugh>. So yeah. High as a hay act to his hay act, to his credit, being a liberal wanting freedom, his view was the free society should be based on the idea that nobody knows anything. And if nobody knows anything, then not even the central planners can be in charge. It is such a ridiculous, you know, talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water where Yeah, I'm going, I'm going to undermine human reason. So, so that no crazy man like Hitler can pretend that he knows everything. It's so, you know, in the objectivist world, it's so bad because, uh, as you said, we should be defending objectivity and not cognitive humility. And, and the cognitively, not just the cognitively, but maybe the psychologically, uh, humble person, David, I'm really worried about is a, what, what I would today call sheeple of people wi willing to be submissive, obsequious, uh, willing to do their duty, you know, to serve the group or serve the state. And I, I don't want to bring in motives, but I really wonder about someone who says, be humble, question yourself. Uh, be defer to, uh, the knowledge of others. It, it sounds like it's contributing to the authoritarian unfree society. Speaker 1 00:52:20 Well, I can easily do so, um, I mean, in regard to Hayek, I, I, I hate that book, the Fatal conceit <laugh>, but I, yeah. Um, it just gets my goal every time I <laugh> look at some parts of it. But anyway, um, but the argument there is quite common. Uh, a lot of, uh, liberty leaning people say that, you know, if you're not a skeptic, you can't be a libertarian, because if you think you know something, then you can dictate it on to Speaker 0 00:52:49 Everyone else. Very common view. Very common view. That's one of the ways we differentiate ourselves. Yes, Speaker 1 00:52:55 Exactly. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, you totalitarian regimes have, you know, in the 20th century, we have a vast, um, laboratory of different ways to, um, undermine human pride, uh, individual pride and self-esteem. Yeah. And make them, um, all them more ready for, uh, leader. I think, you know, if you, again, in the found head in, in the last Sec, or the, uh, where EY is confessing to Peter Keating, what he's after, and how he goes after it, all the ways of tearing down Yeah. The independent man. Right, right. Um, and I, that was so brilliant, um, as a, you know, from an author who came from a totalitarian society Yeah, right. And was witnessing, um, a movement in that direction in America at the time, it was just, that's fabulous. But that's, I guess, that, that, you know, it exemplifies your point that, um, there's a strong connection between individualism and freedom on the one hand. And, and on the other side, sheepishness, uh, lack of self-esteem, humility, and, um, looking for a leader or a father figure or some authoritarian to, you know, tell you what to do. Speaker 0 00:54:25 David, I know you've written a lot about, uh, free will and volition. You've lectured on it. Uh, we talked about this offline, so to speak. What role does that play? Because if determinism is dominant in the culture, that you have no agency, you are buffeted by, uh, forces beyond your control. You didn't choose your parents, you had the luck of the draw, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't that undermine pride in the sense of, well, you can't take credit if you're not, if you don't have agency. Is that, does that play a role at all, or is that kind of tangential to this? Speaker 1 00:55:07 Well, I think it's an important part of the context of what we're talking about, of in, in understanding pride, uh, as a virtue and self-esteem as a value. Um, the importance of taking credit should be objective. Uh, I don't take credit for my parents. Yeah, right. There's a whole metaphysical puzzle about whether that even makes sense. But anyway, uh, <laugh>, I don't take credit for the fact that they, um, were able to provide me with a good education. Yeah. Um, they supported, you know, me through my youth. And, um, you know, I like, like anyone else, you know, I had, there are good things about my parents and things I, I fought, fought against at the time. But overall, I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky to be in America. I'm very lucky to live at that time. I do when, um, and to have lived through, you know, the digital revolution, so that now I work on, um, a work processor instead of a manual typewriter, and just one thing after another that I am grateful for that I didn't. Speaker 1 00:56:14 And gratitude, I think is partly involves the awareness that I'm benefiting from things that I do not take credit for personally. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So you have to keep that context and be, be clear. I'm taking credit, you know, so if I'm, you know, if I'm a rich, uh, rich person because I'm an heir someone who made a ton of money, yeah. Um, I, I can't take pride in my wealth or, you know, say I'm, you know, one of the higher class people 'cause hey, I, I can afford a nice tux and all these glittery parties. Uh, no, uh, you didn't make that money, but, um, you take pride in the things that you are have achieved and what you've done with what you given. Um, so I think that's important. But you can't lose sight of, you can't, it's not all what you were given. I mean, take any, any, any person, you know, there are a lot of worthless errors. Um, yes, Speaker 0 00:57:16 Yes. I, I am ver I love that answer. I'm very, uh, super conscious of this, David. Not only because I'm in the same position you are, any middle class or upper middle class American who knows their history, feels the same word you do. And I know we don't think things are random. Everything is caused. But I say the same thing every day. God damn, am I lucky I was born in America in 1959? What the hell? But you can wreck it. You can throw it away. I say to Stu, I say to, and I say to students at the very prestigious university I teach at, 'cause I know where they came from, <laugh>. I say that you think you're privileged, okay, but think of all the classmates who are not here and they're in the gutter or they're in a grave because they made bad choices, but you didn't. Speaker 0 00:58:07 And you are here and you took your endowment. And here's what's so wonderful about pride. You take this endowment from your parents or whatever. You don't say you earned that, but you're given a platform and a, and a new launching pad, so to speak. But that's what civilization is, right? We're supposed to enjoy the hand downs of prior achievements and then go from there, build on the shoulders of heroes, right, David. And, and that you can properly take credit for. And if anything, you might say to people, you are really in a position to achieve something. 'cause you have this platform. So what are you gonna do about it? What, what path are you going to carve out? What are you gonna do? It's your responsibility. Stop feeling guilty, allegedly, because you were given this privilege. You're not obligated either. You don't have to give anything back to society. You don't have to do this. But for your own selfish purposes, go do something because look at all these assets you have. That's kind of the message I send. That's a little, what, what do you think? Speaker 1 00:59:12 I think that's great. I, I hope your students are listening and, um, <laugh> appreciating what you're telling them. Speaker 0 00:59:21 Great. Well, we have half an hour. You wanna leave the last half hour into questions, David, or do you want bring, you want, do you have some other points you wanna make? Speaker 1 00:59:30 No, I'm fine. Uh, let's, uh, you know, uh, our, our back and forth, you, you, you and me, Richard, uh, is, is brought out a lot of point, additional points and good points. But, uh, let's open it up to questions for people. Okay. Speaker 0 00:59:44 Scott, take it over. It's been, uh, Speaker 2 00:59:47 Great session. Uh, Tom, Tom, thanks for joining us. Do you have a question? Speaker 3 00:59:54 Uh, yes, I do. And thank you for the, uh, meeting. Uh, here's a question that I have. Uh, would you say that, uh, now this concerns both virtue and vices. Uh, would you say that, uh, it's a character trait and if it is a character trait, it's derived from, uh, a principle, uh, which comes from and is productive of an awareness of the world? And if so, isn't that not just something that you are aware of when you are walking around in the world? And, and then, uh, if someone has the, uh, the character trait, the principle, then they will see the world and interpret it according to those principles. Uh, so where do the co, uh, those principles come from? That's my my main question, uh, because if we say that we start out Tabula Raza, um, I like to know, uh, how someone can start out not having the virtue toward becoming a virtue, uh, virtuous, um, presumably from, from inductive evidence and so on. Uh, but, but that's the developmental process that I'm, I'm wondering about. Speaker 1 01:01:15 Um, I'll take a crack at that. And Richard, um, you know, I'm sure you have a, you know, additional perspective, but I, I think we acquire the principles, um, inductively, uh, i I, in, in, in epistemological sense, it's inductive, but not because the child growing up is, um, a mini scientist. It's because he's living a life and observing certain things. I mean, you just look at the, um, look at a baby's face when the, or an toddler or infant, whatever, um, is able to do something or learn something, um, just the way their, their eyes light up. It feels good to understand. It feels, and that's the beginning of an appreciation of why rationality is so important. And it builds, um, successfully, uh, and develops from the germ of a feeling maybe to an, uh, hopefully a full explicit recognition that reason is, is a good thing. Speaker 1 01:02:23 That's how we succeed. And same with, you know, someone with honesty, uh, as a virtue, honesty is a kind of an anci, ancillary of rationality. It means not faking the truth. Well, there are a lot of temptations to be dishonest. And, um, it, you know, part of, uh, parental teaching, uh, is hopefully no, don't lie. You, it's not ultimately, I mean, the parents should be teaching. It's not in your self-interest. You don't actually gain from a lie. You'll suffer, uh, in your, in your own self, uh, your, your self-confidence. But also you'll be caught almost certainly, you're not that smart <laugh>. Oh, no, I take, I take back the last sentence, Speaker 1 01:03:12 But, uh, but you will be caught. So, I mean, you learn these things inductively, uh, from experience. Um, but this is a different process from what we'd consider a scientific induction where you actually do experiments and have controlled, um, controlled studies. You know, that's not how we learn ethical principles. That's not how philosophy in general works, really. Uh, what we're doing is articulating truths that are based on the world. But I will say this, every virtue, um, we, you know, ran, ran, uh, introduced all the virtues in when, in golf speech and Atlas drug by saying, X is the recognition that there's some fact of reality that we recognize that's cognitive and that we adopt and act by. That's a moral commitment. Um, but understanding that fact is what, um, moral development is about. And I, I, I think it's, as I was saying, it happens inductively, Speaker 0 01:04:20 Tom, I think it's a great question. And the, since we do believe in tabular rasa, the question is how does the canvas get filled? I like David's answer, inductively is the best way. But as I introspect as to being a kid and being a parent, I think it starts, this is, this will sound weird, but I think it starts dogmatically. In other words, you, you hear from your parents or teachers or preachers eat your vegetables or, uh, share your toys, or you use your words, use your manners. Don't hit your sister. Uh, you must love grandma. Uh, here are the 10 commandments. You, you, we've all heard this, right? So what's interesting though is they begin as dogma. Okay, whatever mom said. So, but yes, the truly moral person over time, and they become adolescents and then teenagers checks those dogmas and say if they're really independent and so on. Speaker 0 01:05:14 Is that true or not? Should I really share things? Is this really all about communism? <laugh> are the 10 command. George Carlin famously reduced the 10 commandments down to two, be honest and don't cheat on your wife, or something like that. It's a hilarious skit, uh, which you should, uh, look up. So I agree with you, David, but also Tom asked something about the world. I think there's something about provincialism and cosmopolitanism that's interesting as well. So just as you grow up out of your family household and learn a broader world, you know, at the public school or in the broader, the same thing you get beyond America, you travel abroad, you say, wow, wow. People live differently in wildly different ethical codes. And I'm learning something here. I'm learning what's good or evil, but I have a broader context of knowledge. I moved beyond my parents' house to my home, you know, to my, uh, hometown, to broader. Yeah. That's how we learn. And that's, I think more the reason why we need an ethical code. There's so much detail, there's so much, uh, information out there. How do you possibly, um, process it ass, assort it and figure out what's the right way to live? That's what a moral code's for and reason, obviously reason. Speaker 2 01:06:43 Great. Uh, Clark, Speaker 4 01:06:47 Yes. Thank you so much. Uh, I'm really, really enjoying this and I hope you guys continue doing, um, these sessions together. Um, not that the parts <laugh> each individually are, are great, but somehow the sum of the parts, when y'all get together like this, uh, more than one scholar in one of these rooms, it seems to be even better. So let's, um, here's, hoping that you guys continue to do this. Um, I have kind of a, a tangential question, uh, because I don't really think about these matters, uh, all that much the way you guys do. And, and of course you've made me this last hour think of these things. But, but what do you, what do you guys think about the fact that so many people today, you know, the Bill Gates, these highly productive, creative people, they're just not proud of, of all their accomplishments until they go off and like gates and create a foundation, which essentially, essentially, you know, the Gates Foundation, uh, you know, promotes very woke social justice kinds of ideas. Speaker 4 01:07:54 And they're proud of that <laugh>, they're very proud of all the things that would essentially tear down Western civilization. But for some reason, and again, I, I know a lot of this is compartmentalization, you know, they, you know, during, during his career, someone like Bill Gates obviously worked many, many hours and highly creative, highly productive. And, you know, now I'm at the point he's older now, he doesn't do that. I wish he'd go back to producing and creating, uh, but, but it's like he, he can't feel proud of that. He's gotta compartmentalize, because again, you know, he, he, he went to Harvard. I think he dropped out of Harvard. But, uh, you know, but, but in any, in any event, you know, there's, I I know millions of, of, of lesser, you know, people, not billionaires, but, you know, very creative, productive people who are the same. They just can't feel pride, uh, or, you know, they can't be, feel proud of their productive, creative achievements, but they can, they can feel proud of, of all the woke things they do in life. So, I know it's off on a tangent to some extent, but, but what do you guys think of that? Speaker 4 01:09:02 David, do you wanna go first? Speaker 1 01:09:04 Um, this is, this is something that, um, great question. Annoys me. No end. Uh, it has for decades, and I've written about it. It's, uh, I think ultimately it comes, it, it reduces to a kind of mind body dichotomy that, um, business is lowly materialistic, it's selfish. Um, it's all about profit. Uh, whereas higher things regarded as higher, like political leadership or philanthropy or, uh, nonprofit work, um, by the very nature of the term nonprofit, it's okay. You're exempt from, uh, that, that materialistic accusation. And, you know, I, and I remember writing something about Ted Turner back in the day, you know, what he did in the seventies in creating c n n created much more value than he ever will create with the millions that he gives away. And, um, but it's, it just, in terms of value, it makes no sense. But I think it's, it's a combination of this anti materialism that we still, we inherited from religion, like so many other things. Speaker 1 01:10:25 But it's been secularized, but still is, is, is a factor that there are higher versus lower professions, helping professions, teachers, psychologists, doctors, that they're the good guys because they're, um, engaged in a noble profession that is aimed at helping others. Whereas business people are all about money and, uh, profit. And so that, and, you know, that's, that's money is just, you know, material and pursuit of, it's selfish. So, um, it's a combination of anti self, anti, you know, anti selfishness and anti materialism. And it is people who are, you know, don't follow those principles in their actual productive life as they, as they wouldn't be successful if they did. Um, but they don't think that, they don't look at the, what they did to, to create the companies or make all the money they did. They don't see it in moral terms. Morality is all about giving. And, um, so anyway, I Speaker 0 01:11:31 Hear you, Clark. That's a great question. And I feel the same thing David does, and that David dearly nailed the answer. That that is it. The, the MINDBODY split and business is low and grew. That the examples you named business people are, uh, yes. I, I happen to think, I can't imagine. I know they're mixed, everyone's mixed philosophically, uh, among top CEOs and commercial people, but I have a hard time believing while they're building the wealth and building their enterprises, these, if you know, their biographies, um, uh, Steve Jobs and others, and even Warren Buffett and others who lean left in their actual biographies, they are prideful. Uh, they're just not publicly. So possibly because they've been reli, they're religious. So they're told this is a sin. So don't say it. Don't say the real thing out loud, so to speak. Don't say the truth out loud, but I, you know, just backing into inferring their achievements, it's hard to believe they would not have the fuel over many decades of, you know, a kind of quiet internal pride. Speaker 0 01:12:38 And that's what pride is anyway. It's not boasting we already said that, right? That that's how they built their careers. But you're absolutely right, Clark, if they have this ethic that says, well, pride is really a sin, they're gonna spend the latter half of their life giving it away, engaged in what's called philanthropy, word for loving humanity. What you weren't loving humanity when you were building your business, but only when you're giving away your wealth. It's ridiculous. But even back as far as Andrew Carnegie, who came up with the concept of the social gospel, how interesting. Social gospel make a lot, make a lot of money, but then give it away. Give it away. And the giving away part is the moral part. Uh, or the whole phrase of give back something give back to the community as if businessmen had stole something. Ayn Rand's last, uh, lecture Clark, I think, you know, was the sanction of the victim. Speaker 0 01:13:27 She basically told business people, don't do this, don't do this. Don't, um, uh, in a way slap yourself in the face by apologizing for your success. I would just point out as the last point, I would just point out, if you look on the positive side, what do you make of this in the arts and entertainment? Not business, although it is business oriented in arts and entertainment and sports live tied all over the place. They have championship ceremonies, they have parades going down, you know, city streets, they have the Academy Awards, the Emmys, the ESPYs, they're all in gowns and, and Jewel bajo and, and red carpets. And what do you make of that? I mean, I, the American people love it mostly. And it's interesting because these are people who are proud of their achievements and they're getting awards. And it's interesting 'cause you don't have the equivalent of business. Speaker 0 01:14:28 You don't have like a business Academy awards. Like, here's the best business of the year, the best product of the year. But I think that goes back to David's point. It's the commercial versus the artistic, or the commercial versus the non-commercial. But I, I think there's something to be learned by seeing overt. I mean, these people are overt to the point of almost, almost being over the top when you watch the Academy Awards. They're overtly prideful, maybe a little too publicly. So, but it, the fact that it exists in some of these realms is interesting, but I think it only proves that there's this bias, as David pointed out. Speaker 1 01:15:06 Yeah. I just don't wonder, wonder, one little footnote here. Uh, it's more of a question for Richard and, and Clark and anyone else. Um, I've had a few experiences, I'm not in business myself, but I've had a few experiences of hearing businessmen talk to other people in business. And then they have no bones saying, you know, here's what I did. Yeah, here's, here's why. It worked Speaker 0 01:15:28 Privately. Speaker 1 01:15:29 And obviously they're taking pride in it, but when they speak to, uh, anyone outside business, right? Um, they're much more, you know, humble, I would say, Speaker 0 01:15:39 Right? Speaker 1 01:15:40 And self effacing. Right? Speaker 0 01:15:42 But Speaker 1 01:15:42 I dunno how common it's, but I, yeah, Speaker 0 01:15:44 But even, and even when Ford started the Ford Foundation, why did he put his name on it? Or the Carnegie Foundation or Carnegie Hall? I remember Donald Trump many years ago, in the eight, in the 1980s, Donald Trump was in being interviewed, and someone said, why do you put your name on buildings? And he said, 'cause I built them <laugh>. And questioner was like, what? What? And that answer is so straightforward. It's a unabashed pride. I, and then of course, fast forward to Obama, and you didn't build that. Remember his famous phrase, he said to people, you didn't build that no one should, no one should be prideful in saying they built some product or some business like that because they went to public schools and they got to work on a subway, and they walked on public streets. And this, this nasty desire to undermine pride in people's achievement and, uh, possibly, uh, not to defend Donald Trump, but that could possibly be why on the one hand he's so universally loved and at the same time hated 'cause he's so brazen about what he's achieved. Speaker 2 01:16:57 Interesting. I know he, uh, referenced being a ran fan in a past interview. Um, so I wanted to just get into, you know, you address this a little bit, but how much of this is semantics, you know, objectivist terms like selfishness and sacrifice, where we're going to these people and saying, you know, you're using these terms wrong, like pride and humility, and then getting bogged down in something where we're not that far apart in reality, like you said, I mean, most religious people today, they, they wanna do a good job at their work, and they're not really worried about the pride of sin, and they see it as more the hubris with the rappers flashing their money and things like that. Speaker 0 01:17:41 <laugh>. That's good. Scott? Yes, <laugh>. Speaker 1 01:17:49 I think, uh, there is a semantic issue here. Um, and I was thinking about this as I was preparing for this session. Um, you know, we talked about a number of, uh, uh, terms that were important for us to try to understand pride, self-esteem, shame, guilt, um, humility. And, um, you know, Richard pointed out early on that, um, pride can name it be a, a term that names a feeling as well as a virtue. Um, whereas we don't have really a term for the feeling of being honest. Um, and that's one, one of the ways in which, you know, language is, you know, and you just, you can't just go by language or ordinary usage or dictionary definitions. You have to get to the concepts behind them. And words are used, um, to communicate. And there are d many, many different features of communication beyond what we would consider the philosophical essential points. Speaker 1 01:18:53 Uh, and you know, the, the idea of pride as a name for a feeling, well, that's a common, that's a common feeling. And so you need a name for it. And, uh, it's not the only virtue that, um, you know, can be it the only, it's not the only term for virtue that also can, um, name a feeling. A gratitude is a feeling, but it's also a, um, a virtue, I would say. Um, benevolence is a feeling. Um, it's also a virtue. And so it's, it's, it language adapts itself to not, not just to the underlying conceptual structure, um, which it doesn't do as well as it should. And, but it's, it also has to adapt to many other needs for communication, shortcuts, understanding, connotation, et cetera. Speaker 0 01:19:48 Uh, Scott, another way to answer this is, David, one of the interesting things David and I talked about, mostly David's knowledge, Aristotle, we, we've quoted, Aristotle is saying it's the, uh, pride is the crown of the virtues. And he was really very good on this. And the way he was good on self-love and, and other things and, and rant herself as Aristotelian. And the revival in philosophy of what's called virtue ethics has given some space to people like Tara Smith, an objectivist philosopher and others defending pride, uh, properly. Um, but it, but up to until then, the Conte approach had been just do your duty. There are no set, there are no virtues, you know, to go through and say how to enhance your life or engage in human flourishing. That's too selfish. You just need to do your duty. But, but David, uh, I don't wanna speak for you, David, but one of the things you said to me, which I thought was very profound, you just said wonderful as Aristotle was, he, he did give us this idea that the right way to go on every virtue is some halfway point or median between two vices. Speaker 0 01:20:58 And when he talks about pride, it was in the context of him writing about Magnan amenity, you know, the magnanimous man, right? He set it up, he set it up as you know, well, you can be, he didn't, I don't know the words he used in Greek, but something you can be really vain or arrogant or you can be totally self basing to vices to him, thankfully. And then he said, well, the, the intermediate point is pride. And um, I leave it to you, David, it, there's something wrong there, right? We're saying the splitting the difference between two vices gives us a virtue that's not really right. But it goes to Scott's point about that's what people are saying, right? They're saying, well, don't, let's not go to extremes. You don't need to be some arrogant Donald Trump pride stir, but you also don't have to, you know, burn yourself in the public square and self emulate. So let's split the difference. That's very common, isn't it, David? Speaker 1 01:21:53 It's very common, uh, and I don't know how much Aristotle is responsible for, but that idea of, of, uh, the golden mean virtue as a, as the mean between two, uh, wrong extremes is very common. And yeah, I think it's completely wrong because both, you know, in take his, his treatment of pride, um, you know, the contrasts were the, um, um, between the vain glorious man who exaggerates his accomplishments and worth, and the, um, what was it called? The self amazing guy. I can't remember what the actual norm conventional translation is of the Greek, but, um, yeah, meat Speaker 3 01:22:38 Cro Zia. Yeah, mega Zia and Meat Zia. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:22:43 Oh, thank you, Tom. We have a, we have an Aristotle scholar here. Yeah, alright, <laugh>. Um, but you know, both of those are non-objective. Pride is the objective evaluation of yourself and objective commitment, uh, commitment to an objectively good goal. Um, neither of them, uh, pride is not both, both of you know, the, sorry, Tom, gimme those words again. <laugh>. Yeah, Speaker 3 01:23:16 Microtia. That's the smallness of soul. The other one is greatness of soul. Speaker 1 01:23:23 Okay? So the smallness of soul is, um, a, a false view of oneself and the greatness of soul is a false view of oneself. And both of them, I, I think I have to go back and read Aristotle again, but, um, I think both of them involve comparison with other people and the, yeah, yeah. Uh, but pride doesn't involve that. I'm not sure how clear Aristotle was about that, but I, I think in calling it the Crown University, Speaker 3 01:23:50 Can I interject and add, add some context to what you just said, David? Absolutely. What I read from Aristotle is that, um, um, his definition of pride has two components as well. One is that, um, I, I sent, I sense myself as great, that's first component. And the second component is, and I am indeed great factually. So it is a kind of a congruence to reality that Aristotle is saying, and the greatness has to be of a certain quantity below that. It is just normal being sensible and so on. So, so that's a third component to to, to the, the formula, Mila. Speaker 1 01:24:39 Well, thank you. That's, that is, that is absolutely great, Tom. It's, it, it's so, um, precisely stated, and then it's bringing back, you know, my ancient memory of, uh, <laugh> Nick McKee in ethics. But, um, yes, at the, and the point that, um, the third point here that it has to be of a certain quantity or magnitude is not something that objectiveism, uh, would, would endorse. I mean, pride, all these virtues are virtues available to anyone who is not, um, cognitively impaired. That they just involve recognizing a fact that is available to anyone to recognize and acting accordingly, um, on whatever scale of accomplishment or achievement, um, you're capable of. Um, so an important point I think about or brand, uh, versus Aristotle in this case Speaker 0 01:25:35 Case, yeah. And I just wanted to, uh, reiterate, David used the word commitment. This, this idea of the pride is a virtue of commitment to moral perfection. We haven't talked about the concept of perfection, but if it's not platonic, if it's reality, Aristotelian, Randy and Bay, you can be perfect. That sounds weird to people, but, uh, she also does discuss it that way. The idea of commitment to moral perfection. But epistemologically objectivity for Rand is defined as commitment. I love that idea. Commitment to, you know, volitional adherence to reality by the method of logic. So objectivity, epistemologically, it has that idea of commitment, volitional choice, plotting a path. It's not automatic. It takes work, it takes effort. You need to figure this out. You might do it wrong if you do it wrong, you need to figure out how to do it right. It's, see, the activeness of it is so active, it's not passive at all. Speaker 0 01:26:37 It's really wonderful. And that's true of the pride, the virtual pride as well. She has that, that, that's the idea of ambitious, that when I read Ambitious as an economist, when I read Ambitious in a Moral philosopher, I immediately think of career. I've been on Wall Street, I know what ambitious people are like. They're vibrant, they're vigorous, they're active, they're dynamic, they're not stick in the muds. They're not, they're not gonna sit in a job that bores the hell out of them. They're getting headhunted by other people who want them. If you apply that same kind of attitude, I'm gonna build my career. I'm not just gonna wait around for opportunities, I'm gonna seek out opportunity. I might even leave this big company and start my own business. That you see that whole attitude. Can you imagine having that attitude toward whether you're morally right or not? <laugh>, nobody thinks of it that way. Nobody thinks of it that way. I'm gonna build my moral career, if you will. I'm gonna make sure it adds up to something. I'm gonna improve every year. I'm gonna build my human capital and skill base. Nobody thinks of that, but, but again, EIN Rand was big about using commercial metaphors for moral perfection. And just as you can perfect your skills in business, you can perfect them in moral, uh, elements. And, and, uh, so the moral ambitiousness angle is very good in Rand. Speaker 2 01:28:01 Yeah, that would make another great show, uh, the moral perfection, because I do think that has become conflated with some objectivist to, uh, not necessarily admitting when they're wrong. So, um, making that differentiation would be great. But this has been a great topic. Uh, Tom, thanks so much for the color commentary as well. Uh, next Wednesday we are going to have a current events with, uh, Richard and Rob Rasinski. That's gonna be, uh, all across our, you know, YouTube, Twitter. And then, uh, next Thursday night at 7:30 PM we're gonna be hosting a Fountainhead book club, uh, part one with Peter Keating. That should be a lot of fun. And then, uh, Friday we'll be back here on Clubhouse with Richard for an Ask Me Anything. So we'll look forward to that next week. Thank you both for doing this. Thanks to everyone who participated or listened, and, uh, we'll look forward to seeing you next time. Thank Speaker 0 01:29:04 You, Scott, David, all of you. Thank you so much.