Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Well, uh, we shall get started, um, as Scott is busy sharing, and I wanna invite the rest of you to also share the room on Clubhouse and on social media. Uh, hi everyone. Welcome to the Atlas Society on Clubhouse. My name is Jennifer Anju Grossman. Please call me Jag. I am the CEO of the Atla Society, where the leading nonprofit organization introducing young people to the ideas of Iron Rand in fun, creative ways, like graphic novels and animated videos. Today we have a special clubhouse. We are joined by the author of the Philosophical Practitioner and a longtime Objectiveist and friend of the Atla Society. Larry Abrams. Larry, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 00:00:49 Well, thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 0 00:00:51 This is awesome. Um, well, let's kinda set this stage. If we will, uh, start with, um, telling the audience a bit about your origin story. Uh, you got into college, as well as investing early, how you discovered Iron Rand.
Speaker 1 00:01:09 Okay. Let's see. Uh, I guess if you wanna, if you wanna get into the, uh, the really origin of, uh, of my investing story. I guess you could go back to my childhood when, uh, I was saving pennies of my allowance and my father told me that, uh, if I opened an account, if he opened an account for me at, uh, Greenwich Savings Bank, I could put, um, my pennies once they reached a dollar or so, uh, into the bank, and they would pay me interest just for holding it until I was ready to, to take it out. And I told him no. And he said, Well, Larry, why not? I mean, it just, it's free money. And I said, Well, Dad, what, uh, what happens if they don't wanna give me my money back? So my <laugh>, so my father, uh, said, Larry, uh, if they don't give you your money back, I'll give you your money. Uh, and then I said, yes, and he, my father from then on, would tell the story of how he guaranteed the bank <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:02:19 How old were you about then?
Speaker 1 00:02:23 Oh, I don't know. Uh, anything, anything below 10 is
Speaker 0 00:02:29 Six, seven, something like that,
Speaker 1 00:02:32 I guess.
Speaker 0 00:02:33 Where did you grow up?
Speaker 1 00:02:34 That was Brooklyn.
Speaker 0 00:02:37 Brooklyn, okay. And was your dad also, uh, in the financial sphere?
Speaker 1 00:02:43 No, he was a, uh, a shop foreman. Uh, but as far as, uh, as far as, let's see, now you wanna know about, um, the real investing, Um, I guess that started when I was age 13 and I had had a bar mitzvah and, uh, I got, you know, various gifts and, uh, one of the gifts was 10 shares of a stock called Bayo Cigar. And, uh, I used to go out and like all the kids and play stickball, uh, on the streets of Brooklyn. And, uh, then I'd come back home. And when it was time for dinner, and one day I came back home, uh, and dad as usual, uh, was reading the financial news. And, uh, he said, Oh, I see you made $10 today. And I said, No, dad, I was out playing stickball. And he said, Well, you have 10 shares of cigar, don't you?
Speaker 1 00:03:54 And I said, Yeah, I guess so. And he, he, he shoved the paper at me and it said, uh, and he put his finger where it said, Bay Cigar plus one. So I looked at him blankly and he said, That means that every share that you own is worth $10 more today. You made $10. And I said, Whoa, wait a minute. Hold on. Uh, why don't people collect these things then? They might not ever have to work. <laugh>. And dad got very mad and he said, Uh, I don't wanna hear you say anything like that ever again. Uh, man lives by the sweat of his brow. Anything you do on the side is totally on the side. And I thought, uh, well, uh, gee, I, I don't know what his problem is, but, uh, I'm going to collect these things. So that's what started me off as far as the, uh, as far as the, uh, uh, starting in college, Yeah, I started at the University of Chicago when I was 16, and I graduated, uh, at 19. And, uh, I then went on to, uh, graduate school and then another graduate school. Um, but, you know, that's not what you're asking about. So I'm
Speaker 0 00:05:27 Assuming, um, that starting college at 16, I mean that you must have been the only one, or was that more
Speaker 1 00:05:38 No, no. The University of Chicago, uh, had, I don't know if they still have at this time, but they had at that time a program whereby, uh, you would take their, uh, I forget if it's three hours or six hours entrance exam, and if you could pass that exam, they would take you in regardless of whether or not had, uh, uh, a high school degree. So I took the exam and, uh, you know, they, they gave me a scholarship. And, uh, there were, there were others in in my class who had done the same
Speaker 0 00:06:11 And was college when you, where you learned about I rand?
Speaker 1 00:06:16 Well, no, that was in, that was in, uh, in my second graduate school. I was, uh, I was studying to be a clinical psychologist, and, uh, there was a, a big exam, uh, coming the next day. So I went to the university bookstore cause I was tired of studying, and I just looking for something easy to read, <laugh> to divert me. And, uh, you had these wire racks that you sort of moved in a circular motion. And I looked at the racks and I, I saw the fountain head, and, uh, I thought, All right, well, let's try this one. So totally at random, I bought that book. I stayed up for the next 24 hours reading it, uh, without a stop. Well, it was a stop to go to the bathroom, but, you know, you get the impression, you got the idea <laugh>. And, uh, an hour after that, an hour after my having finished it, I, uh, went, uh, to take my, the exam, uh, which, uh, I suppose I passed.
Speaker 1 00:07:29 Uh, don't ha don't remember much about it. But then when, uh, when I, when I was done, uh, with that particular, uh, graduate, um, well, that particular attempt, uh, to get a, uh, to become a clinical psychologist, which I abandoned when I discovered that, uh, our textbook said that for all clinical psychology, uh, schools, the rate of, uh, spontaneous remission is equal to the rate of cure. And so I said, uh, wait a minute, hold it. You mean, uh, doing nothing is the same as what I'm gonna be offering. And, uh, the head of the department told me, uh, well, let's, let's give you some, uh, readings in, in various schools of psychology and see if there's anything you like. Uh, and that, that didn't work because, uh, that made no difference, <laugh>, uh, cause none, none of the schools said any, none of the schools said anything other than what that textbook said.
Speaker 1 00:08:41 So, um, I guess I just, uh, I guess that's it for, uh, well, I, Okay, there's more. Um, the way I started in investing was that, um, I had at the end of, of all the courses that I had taken in the degrees I got, uh, I had no money and, uh, I had no job. Uh, and my money, the no money, uh, amounted to, uh, $80, which is what I was down to. And, uh, I went around to Wal since I enjoyed, um, investing, uh, I went around, I figured I might as well try that. So I went down to Wall Street and asked for a job is an analyst, and they, I tried seven different brokerage firms, and they all said, Have you taken accounting? And I said, No, I have not taken accounting. Uh, so, uh, after about the third rejection, I read a book on accounting.
Speaker 1 00:09:52 And the next, the next Wall Street firm that asked me that, I said, No, but I read a book on it. And so that firm and all the others said, No, not good enough. You have to have taken accounting. So I was, since I was down to, um, virtually no money, um, I figured, okay, uh, even though I have to pay, uh, a fee, if it works, I have to, you know, I'm pretty desperate here. So I went to Ed Head Hunter's office and, uh, the head held's office, there was a, a bench outside the office, and the door to the office was open, and I was, I guess number three or so, uh, after the person who is already in there. And, uh, I heard the person say, uh, well, I'd like to become a securities analyst. And, uh, the head hunter said, Well, that's, uh, unfortunately there are very few openings for that.
Speaker 1 00:10:54 And, uh, there's one, there's one at, uh, at the value line investment survey, uh, on 44th Street, uh, uptown. Uh, so <laugh>, I, uh, shot to my feet, uh, out the door into the subway, went to 44th Street, went to the value line offices and said, Hi there, I'm, uh, interested in becoming a securities analyst. And, uh, so I expected a whole raft of questions about my experience and about accounting. Nope, none of it. They said, Okay, uh, we have three tests for you to take start now. And they gave me <laugh>, they gave me, uh, three different, it was, uh, math, English, and general reasoning. So I did all that. And, uh, and they, they, I asked them, Okay, well, well, when will I hear? And they said, Yeah, you'll hear in approximately two weeks. So the next day, the next morning actually, I got a call from the value line saying, We wanna hire you.
Speaker 1 00:12:05 And I, um, I, I thought, Wow, a man from heaven, uh, unbelievable. So they said, Wait, when can you start? And I said, How about, oh, in an hour, <laugh>, that's great. So <laugh>. So I, uh, I didn't have really, I didn't wanna spend money for a, uh, for the subway or for the bus if I could help it. And I was only about 20 blocks from their office. So I walked there, and, uh, I went in there and they offered me, um, starting salary, um, which, you know, whatever they had offered me, I would've said yes, yes, yes. Uh, and I took it. And, uh, they, they, uh, let's see, uh, tripled, yes, they tripled my salary in three years. And, uh, then, uh, I got calls from, uh, a few brokers who, one in particular asked me if, if he could, uh, buy the things I was buying, uh, after I was finished buying.
Speaker 1 00:13:17 And I said, Absolutely, sure, uh, that'll just push the price up, which is good for me. Yeah, feel free. So, uh, somehow or other, uh, word on me got around Wall Street. I have no idea how that happened, but it happened. Uh, and I got an offer from, uh, two different places. Uh, one, you know, one of them, uh, said, You know what? What'll make you come here? And I said, Well, um, let's see, how about doubling my salary? Uh, private office, private phone? I don't talk to your brokers, but I'll, uh, just tell them, uh, what, uh, what I'm recommending. Uh, and, uh, I have my own hours. And, uh, if you don't like how I'm, uh, performing, you can, I don't need a contract, just fire me. So they said, Fine, it's done. And that was my entire, not only was an entire, my entire Wall Street, uh, experience, it was also my entire nine to five experience, cuz I left. And I, I thought, Okay, I know how to do this now. And, uh, I think at that time, my head, uh, managed to, uh, move my, uh, negligible networks up to 250,000. And I said, Okay, I know how to do this now, so why do I need to go to an office that nine to five? And that was, uh, how the investing began.
Speaker 0 00:14:59 And then you moved out on your own?
Speaker 1 00:15:03 Oh, I moved out of my own <laugh>. That's
Speaker 0 00:15:06 In terms of, you know, not in terms of your hanging up your own shingle, um, as opposed to working for a different firm.
Speaker 1 00:15:13 Oh, no, I never had a shingle. I never, uh, I never offered, uh, investment advice to any particular clients. Um, what happened was, uh, I got somebody, uh, came to see me and said he had heard about me, and he was starting an oil company, and, um, would I like to join the oil company? And I said, Well, why would I wanna do that? I'm doing fine doing what I'm doing. And, uh, he ex I said, Explain to me, you know, why is this your oil company in any way unique? So anyway, after we talked for a while, uh, I told him that, um, I'm not moving into any oil company office. I'm not moving out to Kansas, which is where he was from. Um, but if you want me to, uh, do some things on the phone and, you know, um, indicate to, to prospective clients what you're all about, I'd be happy to do that.
Speaker 1 00:16:15 So that's what happened there. And, uh, that was the, I guess the only other job I had. Well, except for, uh, and in a job as a, as a stock boy moving textiles when I was 16, uh, between semesters, but that doesn't count. They fired me, by the way. Uh, because I kept, since I was working for a textile firm, I kept, uh, reading news items relevant to, uh, new ideas about textiles and et cetera, et cetera. And I sent them up to, I would send them up to the president, and I got a, he fired me and, uh, told me, You don't really wanna be a stock boy. Well, he was right about that.
Speaker 0 00:17:05 All right. Well, I'm gonna wanna get into what happened after you read the Fountain Head and, uh, how your, um, your interest in, in Objectiveism eventually led to your meeting Iran. But, um, would love to get our audience involved. So, uh, Ron, do you have a question for Larry?
Speaker 1 00:17:27 No, just a privilege tuning into Larry's story. I, uh, Larry's been an investor in my company's and a friend, and I'm an admirer of his, and I, I love this, hear more of his history. Thank you, Ron.
Speaker 0 00:17:43 Fantastic. And, uh, well, I'm gonna go back to my questions, but, um, if there are others that would like to come on up and join us and ask a question, don't be shy. So, Yeah. Larry, tell us, So you, you read, uh, the Fountain Head sounds like in a matter of, uh, of days. One
Speaker 1 00:18:04 Day, one
Speaker 0 00:18:04 Day, one day. The entire book. Wow. It must be Speed Rider, A Speed Reader on top of
Speaker 1 00:18:10 Nope. Nope.
Speaker 0 00:18:11 Wow. Amazing. All. Um, and then what did you read next? Was it, did, did you read, did you just continue to read, uh, Iron Rand's books, or did you leave it aside for a bit and return to it later?
Speaker 1 00:18:25 Well, as soon as I, as soon as I found out about, uh, that she had written, uh, another book, um, I had to go and get it because the, the Fountain had was then and Remains today, my favorite book in the whole world. So, if she had written another book, I, I had to, you know, find it and get it and read it. But I, I had no money to buy the book, believe it or not, <laugh>. So, <laugh>, this was before, uh, my jobs. So, uh, I signed up in the local library, uh, to get the book, and there was a, a waiting list for it, but I finally got it. I finally read it. And, um, I, I had read in The New York Times that, um, both Barbara Brandon and Leonard Peko, uh, had been giving courses, uh, teaching, I don't know what at Liu.
Speaker 1 00:19:23 And, uh, so I, I called one of them, uh, I don't remember which one. And that said, uh, Ella s the article also mentioned that she had a group that was meeting once a week at her apartment. So I called one of them and told 'em I'd like to join the group. And, uh, he or she talked to me for a while and then, uh, sent me the, told me to call a Greenspan. So I called Alan Greenspan, uh, and, uh, he invited me to his place, his apartment. And, um, I went there with a, a whole list of questions about Atlas Shrugged. Um, and, uh, I must say he, uh, <laugh>, he made a remark that, uh, puzzled me to this day. He said, You think you're as smart as I am, don't you? So I had no idea where that was coming from, and I just, I just sort of shrugged. Uh, and we went on. But at any rate, he apparently recommended me to, uh, to iron. And, uh, I joined the group. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:20:38 What was it like about how many people?
Speaker 1 00:20:41 Well, there was about, uh, I would say 10 to 12
Speaker 0 00:20:48 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:20:49 It was, it was very interesting. It was, uh, needless the same, you know, Um, I'm sitting in the company of this, uh, incredible philosopher, this, uh, person who has written the book that I like most of anything I've ever read. Uh, and I, I, I get to listen to what she says and, uh, listen to her answer question. It was amazing. It was quite amazing.
Speaker 0 00:21:17 Now, am I correct that you helped Rand understand the game of chess a bit more? And was this before or after her open letter to Boris Spassky essay?
Speaker 1 00:21:29 Well, it was, uh, it was after, uh, in fact, it was why I, um, uh, taught her anything about chess. It was because, uh, she had written, um, that in effect that, uh, chess players and, uh, including Spassky, are wasting their lives, uh, on this, uh, 64 squares and there's a whole world out there, et cetera. And, and it was a way to avoid reality. And anyway, I, I said to her that, uh, you know, I, if, uh, if you understood the game, if, uh, which I can show you, I think you'd really enjoy it. Um, cause, you know, with with, with the Mind as powerful as hers, I thought she would really, really enjoy it. Uh, and she said, Okay. And, uh, so she invited me, uh, over for five different evenings. And, uh, and I taught her, uh, the moves, which easiest only that takes maybe 10 minutes, and then what she could do with the moves.
Speaker 1 00:22:36 And, you know, uh, showed her some of the, uh, complications that could arise. And, um, one particular sequence of moves I showed her, um, cuz I had her, you know, play me a game as well. And, and I showed her what I could do, uh, in answer to the particular move she had made. And she said, <laugh>. She said, Oh, that's amazing. That is just wonderful that, that, and then, and then you could also go here and you could go here. And, uh, and I said, I, that's, that's not, uh, a genius move on my part. Uh, any good chess player would see that move. And, but <laugh>, she wasn't having any of that. She went on and on about what a beautiful move it was. Uh, it never went any, uh, past that at all because you, you need to practice chess to get, uh, any good at it and, and to enjoy it, really. And, uh, Frank didn't want to
Speaker 0 00:23:44 Back on spending, you know, quite a bit of time with, with her. Um, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about her as a person today?
Speaker 1 00:23:57 Well, you know, I don't follow the misconceptions very much, uh, because I have my own concepts, which are not miss, uh, <laugh>. I know what she was like and, uh, uh, know maybe people who ha who
Speaker 1 00:24:16 Were bad mouthing her and had different, uh, experiences with her. I don't know. There was one thing that she did do, um, that always made me uncomfortable. And that was, at some of her lectures, you had these, um, sort of naively innocent people who would ask questions. They had no idea what the implications of their questions were, but Iron Rand, uh, was, you know, all the implications, uh, flooded in on her as, as soon as the person would would ask it. And she would sometimes get angry and, uh, berate the questioner for having asked the question. And also, you know, saying that what, what it meant about their psychology to have been asking that question. And that was in front of a whole audience. And, uh, I, I didn't like that. Uh, so that's the only, that's the only, uh, conception, you know, negative conception that I know of. So I don't know about any of the misconceptions.
Speaker 0 00:25:26 Um, I also wanna invite David and Scott who are with us. Uh, if at any time you have a question or wanted to jump in, please feel free to do that.
Speaker 3 00:25:40 Can, um, can you tell us maybe any other, uh, just insights about her that, you know, other people may not have known about, that you learned about?
Speaker 1 00:25:52 Well, I, I don't think I had any, Well, I guess maybe, uh, I wouldn't call this an insight. Uh, I was about to say, I, I don't think I had any particular insights that other people know, don't know about, because, uh, everybody knows that she was, uh, a blazing genius and that, uh, her intelligence showed out of her eyes and, uh, uh, and she would get, you know, turned on, even if she was dead tired, she would get turned on by any pH uh, any, uh, philosophy conversation. Um, and she would do this way into the wee hours. Um, but the only, the only, uh,
Speaker 1 00:26:41 The only thing she did that I thought was, uh, didn't, I didn't quite understand, but, you know, it's perfectly, uh, understandable, really in anybody, which was, uh, she, she loved the Perry Mason Show, and she would put it on, uh, while we were, uh, having the group session, uh, the group conversation, I should say. Um, cuz she just always loved to look at it. And one day, um, she put it on and the TV wasn't working well. And so she, she told Frank, uh, you know, Frank, uh, can you fix the tv? It's, the show is starting and it's not working. So Frank went, uh, to, to TV and, uh, started working on it and, uh, wasn't getting anywhere. And she said, uh, Frank, the show was starting, Uh, can you hurry up? And Frank, um, immediately, uh, took umbr of that and said, uh, okay, you fix it. And he left and stormed out of the room. And, uh, I, I don't remember when, whether she went after him or not, but, uh, she was just a little bit impatient. And, um, that interaction was a big surprise to me.
Speaker 3 00:28:10 That's a great story. Thanks.
Speaker 0 00:28:14 So, um, as a longtime Objectiveist, uh, maybe tell a little bit about how you got involved with the Atlas Society, your history with the Atla Society. Any thoughts on, um, the whole debate about open versus closed objectiveism?
Speaker 1 00:28:32 Well, uh, as far as open versus closed, uh, which is, uh, more interesting, <laugh>, I'll get back to the first one, the first question, but that, that's more interesting. Um, philosophy is pretty much, uh, the architectonic, uh, of, of all the sciences. Uh, it's the most comprehensive and complex of the humanities, and it's also the most crucial to your life, of course, whether your philosophy is implicit or explicit. Um, the now the full implications of a given philosophy are, uh, if not infinite and close enough. And closing off examination of those implications is not a wise strategy. Now, I, you can talk about potential additions, uh, prevent, uh, potential deletions of, they would presumably, if you're, if your philosophy is, uh, well attuned to reality, uh, they will not be very many deletions. But that can be lots of additions cuz you know, nobody, nobody can, uh, think of everything all the time. Uh, sorry, not all the time. Can think of every, every everything in one brief lifetime. Uh, sorry, what was the first question?
Speaker 0 00:30:13 Oh, was just about, uh, how you got introduced to the Atlas Society, David Kelly, your history within the objective movement itself, even post Rand?
Speaker 1 00:30:25 Well, uh, let's see, let's see. I don't know, David, Do, do you remember how we met? I just don't remember.
Speaker 4 00:30:38 I don't remember exactly Larry, but I, I know it was in the seventies sometime when I began getting involved, um, went to New York and was living there. Got to know Harry Benner among others and, Cause I recall you and Harry were friends at the time. That's, Yeah, I'm, that's how I met you.
Speaker 1 00:31:00 We were, we were very good friends. Yeah. Um, that's another story which <laugh>, which is as long as the, the totality of the stories I've told so far some other time,
Speaker 4 00:31:14 <laugh>. Yeah, you told me once, uh, some of the details. Um, but I, I, we, I'll, I'll, I'll let that one go, Larry, cuz uh, I know we have other questions and, uh,
Speaker 1 00:31:26 Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:31:27 You have not much time. So, uh, uh, Jennifer, back to you,
Speaker 0 00:31:34 Maybe Larry, a bit about, um, how you got involved in chess competition and, you know, was it your father who taught you chess or how that to be a big part of your life?
Speaker 1 00:31:46 Yeah, yeah. Uh, it's a game that I loved, I still love. And I, I became, um, New York City Mensa chess champion and Connecticut State chess champion. Uh, none of which I could do today. Uh, but of the way I got involved was my father would be playing chess, uh, with my uncle, um, on, on our porch, uh, pretty reasonably regularly. And I was watching, and I was wondering what was so intriguing about this, you know, little board with these little pieces. So I asked him to teach me the game, and he said, Now I, I'm not gonna teach you the game. You're too young. Um, I don't remember how young I was, but, uh, uh, this annoyed me, <laugh>. So I had a friend in, um, elementary school, uh, who knew how to play the game, and I asked him to teach me. So, uh, he taught me, uh, and I, he showed me the moves and he showed me, you know, what to point to the game was.
Speaker 1 00:32:59 And, uh, I lost, uh, four out of the first four games, <laugh>. And, but that, from then on, uh, I, I was hooked. And, uh, I, I played an elementary school. I played with our, uh, the math teacher, and I, uh, I won a game. We only played one game. I won that game. And, uh, then when I went to, to high school, the Brooklyn Tech, uh, I joined the chess club, and, uh, they had tryouts for the chess team. And I, uh, I, I joined the chess team and, uh, we went around, um, playing chess with various other teams in various other schools. Uh, that's about how I got into chess.
Speaker 0 00:33:55 Have you watched the Queens Gambit?
Speaker 1 00:33:58 Oh, yeah. That was great fun. Not very realistic, but great fun.
Speaker 0 00:34:03 <laugh>. In what ways were, was it the most unrealistic?
Speaker 1 00:34:10 Hmm. Well, let's see, where would I start? I'd say learning from the janitor to start with, uh, learning the moves from the janitor and playing with a gender. Uh, I really don't know of, well, I won't say many, any <laugh> janitors, uh, who, uh, have any, any kind of competence at chess and, uh, would, would be able to teach it. Uh, but, uh, the fact that she was on, uh, on drugs, on, I guess on highs, that's not at all typical of chess, but, uh, the way she, the way she went right through so many grand masters at the end, uh, was not realistic. It doesn't happen that way. There are ups and downs and, you know, you, you, you win a few, you lose a few. Even the current world champion who is, uh, presumably, and, and I agree, the best player, whoever lived, uh, loses lots of games.
Speaker 1 00:35:21 And then at the very end, uh, they have her, uh, walking through the, uh, through a park where, uh, chess players playing in the park, there are chess players. And, um, one of them, uh, challenges her to a game. Uh, and, you know, she, she says, fine, you know, and that <laugh> that it's possible. But, uh, she's, she's gonna be, so far, she's world champion. She's gonna be, it's gonna be totally uninteresting to her to play, uh, anybody at the, at the park level. Um, so that, you know, not quite realistic, but still great fun, well worth watching.
Speaker 0 00:36:09 All right. Uh, let's talk a little bit about your book, The Philosophical Practitioner. Um, it's a love story, a mystery, an exploration about what life is all about. What inspired you to write it?
Speaker 1 00:36:26 Well, um, first I had to be inspired to write fiction in the first place, and I always wanted to write fiction. Uh, I guess what inspired me to do that is just enjoying it so much. Uh, but I put off writing fiction much too long. And one day I asked myself the classic question, uh, if not now, when, So I wrote the book. And, um, when you write fiction, you write about what you like to read, and it's great if you can couple that with ideas you think are important and, uh, and why you're doing that. You know, create a sense of excitement and discovery in your readers. Uh, I was, and it was, it was gratifying to see that some of the Amazon reviews, um, went even beyond what just said. Um, and I, I had never seen some problems that, uh, everyone has treated the way I wanted to treat them and entertainingly in, in the particular manner that I wanted to. That's about all, I guess,
Speaker 4 00:37:43 Can I jump in with a question, uh, for Larry?
Speaker 1 00:37:47 Well, it's okay with me.
Speaker 4 00:37:50 Okay. <laugh>, thank you. Um, you're the guest of honor here. Um, Larry, I, I remember talking a bit when you, as when you, I think you, you sent me pretty much the, the finished book. Um, but one, one thing that, um, struck, struck me as I read it, is I, there been quite a few novels, uh, fiction or written by Objectiveist and I, I'm sorry to say this, but an unfortunately, a number of them, um, sound like, uh, sound too much like I ran. And, uh,
Speaker 1 00:38:31 The rest sound like robots.
Speaker 4 00:38:34 Yeah, yeah. Yours doesn't, I mean, it was just an original idea. It took me, I think about, you know, okay, what, what's Larry up to here? And, um, so I, I wondered how he came up with the story of the, uh, the practitioner and the mysterious woman who, um, engages his services.
Speaker 1 00:38:54 You know, um, that's a very good question, and I have no answer. I, I don't know how I came up with it. Uh, I just, uh, I've always been, uh, you know, a fan of good dialogue. Um, now, you know, that has to, that has to tie into it all. And I always enjoyed, um, in the real world, um, good dialogue with anybody that I was speaking to, hard to find, but nevertheless gratifying when you find it. Uh, and it's, uh, and as far as the humor in there, which you didn't ask about, but that's okay. <laugh> <laugh>, um, as far as the human humor in there is concerned, uh, that's just me. That's just the way I think, and that's how I just wrote it down on the page as well. Um, and, uh, let's see.
Speaker 0 00:39:54 All right, we, we've got, uh, another question, I think from Lawrence. And again, I wanna invite anybody who's here with us, feel free to raise your hand and we'll bring you on up. Lawrence, you have a question for Larry?
Speaker 6 00:40:09 I do. Thank you. Hi, Larry. So, hi. You mentioned chess and how you decided to sort of, uh, in instruct, I ran after she had written that letter. And I was curious to hear your thoughts. Um, how do you think chess shaped how you think? Maybe because, you know, often just is a very thinking game, and it can often influence in other ways. You know, certain hobbies can change our outlook on other things we do in our life. And I'm curious if chess had that effect on you.
Speaker 1 00:40:45 Well, um, very little chess itself, very little, but, um, I'll, I'll make a collateral comment after I explain that. Uh, chess, it, it really is, uh, just, you know, confining yourself to 64 squares and seeing all the implications that can occur, uh, on those 64 squares when you define your pieces in a particular way. And it's, it requires, you know, great ingenuity. But, um, and this, this is a big butt. It's only spatial ingenuity. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:41:29 There are people, uh, there, I've met many people including, um, unfortunately, some grand masters, which is as high as you can go, um, who have, well, nothing, nothing to, uh, recommend them at all, other than their chess playing a ability. They don't have any other abilities. Uh, and, uh, not, of course this doesn't apply to everybody, but, uh, it applies to many. It's very easy to become a chess bum if you are hooked by the beauty and, uh, of the game. And, uh, uh, a lot of, a lot of really good chess players don't do anything else. They get along on, uh, one, one of them that I know, uh, became a, uh, bicycle messenger in order to just earn enough money to, uh, eat while he was, uh, doing, while he is, while he is doing his chess. And he was extremely good player.
Speaker 1 00:42:30 He was a called an international master, which he still is. Um, so I think chess itself didn't teach me very much, except, uh, you can't take your moves back <laugh>, once you make a move, it's done. You have to live by it. And you know that. But that's, I don't know that, that, uh, that anybody requires, uh, chess to, to understand something like that. I don't think that's, um, I don't think that's what it taught, but, so it taught me, not the game didn't teach me much, but the meeting a lot of the people and, uh, how they perform under pressure, you know, how they, uh, what they do. Hang on a second. What they do and how they, how they handle themselves. Am I still on?
Speaker 0 00:43:29 Yeah, Larry, I thought that was interesting. I, you know, I'm familiar with surf bums living out here in Malibu. Uh, met a few ski bums over the course of my life, but, uh, never thought of a chess bum
Speaker 1 00:43:42 <laugh>. Oh, yeah, there are many. Um, for example, it was, uh, <laugh>. I was playing in a, uh, they have speed tournaments. Speed tournaments means you do all the moves of the game, uh, in five minutes. Um, they, and they were weekly tournaments on Friday nights at the Manhattan Chess Club, and I was playing in one of these tournaments. And, uh, there was this, uh, you know, pretty good chess player, um, <laugh> who I was playing. And, uh, I, I won the game and first set the scene. It's very quiet in a chess club. You're not supposed to make any noise. Everybody's concentrating. So I won the game, and the guy sweeps all the pieces off the board onto the floor and <laugh>, and says, If you'll excuse me one word, you play this shit and you win. Uh, now this is, you know, this is not atypical, right? The, the behavior itself is atypical, but the attitude is not
Speaker 0 00:44:54 Interesting. I, I think maybe also what Lawrence was, was getting at was, um, just if you have a hobby and, um, it might train you to be creative, it might train you to always thinking about a few moves ahead or a few steps ahead and, and maybe, uh, that that could apply to investing in some ways that you're, you're looking at the economy, you're looking at opportunities, is kind of a chessboard and thinking about things globally and what is, what the, you know, allotment and deployment of the pieces are now where things are going, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 00:45:32 Well, to, to extend that if and when Larry is inclined. How did Objectiveism, what are some of the most important ways that it affected you as an investor?
Speaker 0 00:45:45 Great question.
Speaker 1 00:45:47 Oh, that's a very interesting question. Let me think. Uh, whether it did, and if so, how it did? Um, no, I don't think, I don't think, uh, I don't think it did. I, I think there were, for me at least, I think there were two entirely different realms.
Speaker 3 00:46:08 You've talked about keeping your emotions in check. I think that's kind of related.
Speaker 1 00:46:16 Yeah. But, uh, I, I don't, I don't know that it's chess that taught me that also, it's even, it's harder in chess. Keep your emotions in, uh, in investing, at least. Certainly that was the case for me. Well, you once told me a story vividly that, uh, when you were investing, I think the subject was oil, oil drilling, and people had various attitudes about risk, and you looked at it more individually and objectively than most people do, and you thought that was a key to your success. Do I have a story? Right? Uh, yeah. Um, what, um, the, at the time, I don't know how this has changed now since it's been a very long time since then, but at the time, the success in, uh, in drilling wildcat oil wells, uh, wildcat being defined as, uh, something, you know, far from current production and, you know, who knows if it'll hit or not.
Speaker 1 00:47:21 Um, you have various indications that it might, but it, it's still way up in the air. Um, the, the success rate for that was one in nine. So obviously, to me at least, you know, you just, if you wanna invest in, in oil, which has very had at the time and has even more so now very big upside when you hit, uh, you have to spread your bets, uh, that you don't wanna put your, your oil investing money into, uh, one, uh, drilling location or oil well, because this chances are nine out of 10, you're gonna lose it. So, uh, I, I would do that. I used to do that. And, uh, I was once, this is kind of, uh, really, uh, opposite to your question. I was once having lunch with a partner in a Wall Street firm. First name was Mike, which is totally irrelevant, but there you go.
Speaker 1 00:48:27 Uh, and he was asking me what was I doing? And I was asking him what he's doing, and I was telling him about, uh, the, uh, the oil well investing I was doing. And I asked him, I told him what the odds were, and, uh, nine out 10 are gonna bomb, and one out of 10 will succeed. And he, uh, I, I asked him if he wanted to join me, and then my next oil and venture, uh, venture, and he said, uh, whoa, wait, what? I can't, I can't do that. I said, Well, wait, wait, wait, Mike, um, uh, it's true that only one in 10 is gonna hit, but if it hits, your average return is 30 to one. So what do you say now? Do you want to, uh, do you wanna invest in that? He said, No, I can't do it. Now, this is a, a partner in Wall Street firm who's, you know, used to looking at odds and, uh, you investing on the basis of Oz because nobody, nobody knows the future. Nobody knows what a particular investor investment will return. Uh, and he couldn't do it. And it's obviously totally irrational if somebody said, you know, uh, you could make, uh, three to one, uh, at the end of this deal, or in all probability, uh, he's like, Wow, that's count me in. But no, he couldn't do it, and he's not atypical.
Speaker 1 00:50:04 So, uh, I don't know how far that goes to answering your question.
Speaker 3 00:50:11 Great. Um, can I talk, uh, just quickly about your work in, uh, life extension and biotech? Um, I, I think, you know, the kind of end game of a morality with life of the, as the standard of value should be focused on that. I, I'm, I'm kind of curious what you see as the, you know, most, um, likely innovation that we should be following. If you were a young entrepreneur getting into it, what field would you be exploring?
Speaker 1 00:50:43 Well, um, by biotechnology, uh, biotechnology is, you know, proceeding at, uh, at warp speed as, as a few other areas are. And, uh, it's extremely exciting. Uh, these new drugs that you read about all the time, uh, the, the, the pace, the pace of discovery is, is truly unbelievable. I, I remember there was a, several years ago I saw a cartoon, which stuck with me, which is, this guy is sitting, uh, in a, in a doctor's office, uh, across the desk from a doctor. And the doctor was saying, as yet, there is no cure, but if you'd like to wait for tomorrow's mail, so <laugh>, that would, and that was then, now it's, that would be if you, if you, if you care to wait till, uh, this afternoon's, uh, tweets or whatever <laugh>, uh, it's biotechnology is, is, I, I always thought that that was where it's at as far as, um, innovation in, um, in potential life extension was. And I still think that,
Speaker 0 00:52:05 And you were an early advocate for what became the right to try legislation. Larry, uh, are there other reforms that you'd recommend now to make more innovation in the field of biotechnology and more rational risk taking possible?
Speaker 1 00:52:25 Well, yeah. Yeah, the first thing, the first thing would be, uh, get rid of the fda. Uh, and if you, if you, if you don't wanna get rid of it, because that's the sounds too radical, um, make it a purely advisory body so that you can put a label on your, on your drug and, and say, The FDA has not approved this. Uh, um, and what would happen, you know, people would, would immediately, if, uh, if I were to advocate this, uh, people would, would immediately say, Well, you know, people are gonna die. You need, you need the government to tell you what's working, what's done. You need clinical trials. Uh, I think what would happen if you had no FDA is that, uh, immediately since there would be such a demand for it, uh, private companies would, uh, would come up doing, uh, clinical trials, uh, and making recommendations.
Speaker 1 00:53:26 And then you could, uh, you could, uh, make your own decisions based on, on that, or, or you could hire more than one. Uh, but the main thing is there would be no coercive body anymore standing between a willing buyer and a willing seller. And what are, what are people who have terminal diseases supposed to do? Uh, if they're, if a, a drug is in, in trials and, uh, you know, they can't buy it and the company can't sell it, sure, there's such a thing as compassionate, uh, use, but that's not many past that test because the government is, runs it. There wouldn't be such a test. You just, you'd read all the data that's, uh, available so far, and you'd say, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna die in three months. Uh, I'm gonna try it. What do I have to lose? So anyway, that, that would be the, the, the biggest, uh, reform that I can think of. The other, the other form reform would be, you know, stop, stop suing all the, uh, drug companies and biotech companies, uh, treating them as, uh, milk cows, because every time you do that, and, uh, every billion that you take away from them, you know, diminishes their ability to invest that particular chunk of money in, in, uh, potential new drugs.
Speaker 0 00:54:58 Just to close the things up, Larry, uh, as an investor, I would love to get your thoughts on the current economy, Biden administration's performance inflation. We've had economists on to critique that, and people like Art Laugher and Steve Moore and Steve Forbes. But, uh, from your perspective, um, are we headed for a recession and, uh, are you optimistic or pessimistic about, uh, where we're going over the next couple of years?
Speaker 1 00:55:31 Well, uh, <laugh>, alright, the question, are we headed for a recession? Um, that, that's totally impossible to answer because the economy is made up of so many moving parts and, uh, uh, billions of interactions every day. So predicting the net effect, uh, with any precision is not possible. Uh, it's re it's incalculable, uh, the short term, the short term
Speaker 0 00:56:04 More about, uh, whether you are in a recession, right? So if you're in a sector that's booming, or you're in a sector that's, that's dying than than you're in a particular, you're, it's, it's more personal rather than thinking about the economy as a whole.
Speaker 1 00:56:21 That's right. That's, uh, absolutely right. Um, that said, I, uh, I can certainly talk about odds. Um, the odds of, of a, not only a, a, a recession, but a prolonged one and a bad one. I think the odds are, um, well above 50 50. Uh, of course, that brings up an interesting question, um, which, which is really <laugh> really not opposite here, but it's, uh, which is that, uh, you know, I'm looking, I've said that the, uh, there are billions of interactions and it's impossible to calculate it. So my my statement of my odds are based on being impossible to calculate and being impossible to know. Uh, so my, my estimate is, so whether that will happen, uh, um, may, may and will differ completely from people who are looking at another subset of, uh, of data. But, uh, the interesting question that it brings up is that, uh, I say the, let's say I say the odds are 60%, Well, given what I just said about the, uh, incision of, uh, any, any particular forecast, what are the odds that my statement of the odds is correct <laugh>? And you could go on like that for a long time, but that's, uh, that, that just, uh, bends your mind.
Speaker 0 00:57:58 <laugh>. Well, we've had enough, uh, we've definitely expanded our mind over the past hour. Uh, this really, Larry was a tour to force from philosophy to fiction, from chess, to investing to these precious and priceless, uh, memories of Iron Rand and, and, uh, your time with her. Uh, it's just been a, a real treat, and we're so grateful. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:58:22 Well, thank you. And thank you for feeling that way,
Speaker 0 00:58:25 <laugh>, and thank you also, uh, for all that you do for the Atla Society in terms of allowing us to continue on our work of, uh, engaging young people with these ideas that have, that have really, uh, so nourished and enriched our lives. So we appreciate it.
Speaker 1 00:58:42 Very happy to do it.
Speaker 4 00:58:45 My own, uh, my own. Thanks, Larry. This is, uh, great to hear you.
Speaker 1 00:58:50 Yes, thank you, Davis. Thank you very much.
Speaker 0 00:58:53 All right. I'm gonna toss it to Scott to tell us about what's coming up
Speaker 3 00:58:57 Next. Thank you. Tonight at 8:00 PM Eastern, a student event, Richard Salzman hosting Morals and Markets on Collegiate cronyism. Uh, next Wednesday at 5:00 PM Eastern, Corey Deus will be the guest on the Atla Society asks. And then one week from today in Malibu is our gala honoring Michael Sailor. Uh, we're gonna have, uh, the scholars during the day doing panels. Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun if you're in Southern California or able to attend, I encourage you to, uh, go to atlas society.org/gala. Uh, we hope to see you there. Larry was great. Thank you so much. Ja.
