Speaker 0 00:00:00 We are here now at the top of the hour. So, um, I'm just gonna briefly say hello everyone. Welcome to the Atlas Society's, uh, happy hour on Tuesday. These are usually more social, where you bring people on to talk about various ideas related to Objectiveism and stuff going on to Liberty movement. But today is particularly special because we have a guest talking about bringing objectives, ethics to your business life. Scott, do you wanna introduce Brent
Speaker 1 00:00:30 For us? Yes. Thank you. Um, Brent Taek is the executive editor for Human Events Media Group and co-founder of Common Ground Campus. Uh, he's with us on the very timely topic of bringing the objectivist ethics to your business life. Uh, we'd encourage everyone to share the room. We'll be taking your questions after Brent's opening. I was gonna start, uh, very briefly with, uh, quote, uh, for mine rand, about ethics. My morality, the morality of reason is contained in a single Axiom existence exists, and in a single choice to live the rest proceed from these to live man must hold three things as the ruling values of his life. Reason, purpose, self-esteem. Now, that's very big picture, uh, but in that spirit, I want to hear Brent's take on applying the ideas. So, Brent, thanks so much for joining us. How can we bring the Objectivist ethics to our business lives?
Speaker 2 00:01:36 Can you
Speaker 0 00:01:36 Hear me now? There must have been just an internet hiccup.
Speaker 2 00:01:41 Okay, so, um, again, I'll start by saying thank you to the Atlas Society and Scott for making this happen. You know, it's very rare that somebody gets a chance to work at something for most of their life and then get a chance to share that experience with other people. And for me, that's what I get to. And so I, what I wanna do is theoretical and the appli, you can think in terms of phy, right? You can't design a building without the theory, but you can't build it without being able to apply the theory. So what I wanna do is, uh, share from my experience over 40 plus years of a pretty successful business career and trying to live objectives, ethics in that career. What I've done, and I'm a recovery guy, you know, and, and so we've got some great expressions in recovery. And one of those is that, uh, all I'm gonna try to do today is give you my experience, strength, and hope, and that I hope that, uh, all of you can just take what you like, and then you can leave the rest behind.
Speaker 2 00:02:48 I mean, that's the spirit of it. And I hope that when I'm done sharing these thoughts, that we can have a good discussion and have questions and dialogue, because that's what it's all about. So, um, with all that in mind, uh, so we lose track of something in the world of business very easily. I was told years ago when I was a young professional, that the most important thing to do is to protect your reputation. And I took that very, very seriously. But for a long time, I had it wrong. I thought that the reputation I had to protect was the way that others perceived me. And it took me a while to realize that the reputation that I needed to protect was only my perception of myself. That that was the reputation that I was stuck living with. And if I couldn't protect that in my business life, then I'd lost everything.
Speaker 2 00:03:43 So it's how you're viewed and how you're considered. So who more important to have you view you po yourself positively and consider yourself well than yourself. So what I'm gonna do here is I'm gonna take my understanding of objectives, ethics, and then I'm gonna try to show you how I've applied them and the real world experiences that you'll have when you try to live objectivist ethics, because we don't live in an objectivist world. We're objectivist living in a very different world, and we have to be aware of it. And you have to be aware of the struggles you're gonna encounter when you apply those ethics. So what I wanna start with is the component parts of an objectivist ethics system. So, the first part, we all know it, it's Gulf's pledge, that idea that I'm not going to live my life for someone else's sake, and I'm not gonna ask someone else to live for mine.
Speaker 2 00:04:49 That is the key fundamental driving rule. But that's not all there is to it. And that's the part that everybody knows, but they sometimes skip over the rest. The second part of that objectivist ethics system is that you have to have respect for facts. That you have to be willing to take a look at the real facts, the, uh, the, the real situation in which you find yourself. You can't invent them. You can't massage them. You can't make them conveniently fit. What would work for you. Facts are facts. And when you're applying ethics, you have to have great respect for those facts. The next part within the system is that you have to place reason over your emotion. You can't let your feelings or your impulses rise above your own rational system. This is, is a very common thing that I've found in business people over time.
Speaker 2 00:06:01 I even lecture separately on the different types of emotions that I have watched business people encounter and have destroyed them, uh, in really serious situations. So setting aside that emotional piece and using your reason to make a decision is very important, and that's a key element of the system. The next one, and this is very important as well, everybody likes to think that they're a great three-dimensional chess player, but what does that really mean? We use the term, what it really means is that you have to think through the cause and effect string of what it is you are about to do. You can't have a desired effect without considering the causes of it, and you can't pursue actions without contemplation of the consequences. This, so this is a critical element. You can't just stop and make your decision based on exactly right is front of you in the narrow moment.
Speaker 2 00:07:09 You have to play out the strain. You have to think it all the way through what is likely going to happen next as a result of the decision that I make. The next part, and I think this is the most important part, and I think it's the part that's almost cons, most consistently, let's say, forgotten by people. And that is you have to have an understanding and identification and an order to your values. Your values are those things, those people that are of primary importance to you. Those things that you simply are not willing to sacrifice. You know, Ayn Rand was asked once on the Phil Donahue show, if it was immoral for Amanda to throw himself on a hand grenade, and she said, no, it wasn't that. If his, the men in his platoon were his value and his country was his value, then it could be a perfectly rational choice to throw himself on that grenade to protect your values.
Speaker 2 00:08:24 So those five component parts are what we really need to have to carry into business with us when we start to make decisions that involve ethics. And here's another thing just in general about ethics. We don't need ethics in most of our daily life. And what I mean by that is we don't come into contact with situations on a daily basis that test our very moral fiber. But when we do, when we run into those situations, if we don't have a system to turn to that's just outside of our own wi wishes and desires, then we are all alone. When we try to make those decisions, we have nothing on which to hang our hat. So I think it's incredibly important, important for that reason to have a system. So what does this mean for people then in their business life? And again, I've, I've had my own consulting practice for 23 years.
Speaker 2 00:09:32 I've had a couple hundred engagements. I've seen just about everything there is to see. I've got a broad sampling base. So that's why I want to share this experience with all of you today. First thing you can't do in business is you cannot ask someone to take a professional risk on your behalf. You can explain a situation, and if they choose to take a risk voluntarily on your behalf, that's okay, but you cannot sell or persuade them to do something that is professionally risky for them, simply because it's convenient for you. The corollary to that is you cannot allow yourself to be placing yourself at risk on someone else's behalf, especially your boss. Typically, that ends very badly, and you'll be left with neither your job or your self respect. So don't ask others to take a risk on your behalf, and don't take those ethical risks on behalf of someone else. And that really ties back directly to GA's pledge.
Speaker 2 00:10:48 The next rule is that you have to make sure that the people that you are doing business with understand your ethics. Typically, other people, and this is an area where people would reasonably disagree with me, but it's based on my experience. Most people aren't terribly ethical. It doesn't mean they're badly behaved, but they don't have a system of ethics. They especially don't have an objective as system of ethics. And so when they are, when they are acting in the world of business, they don't share what you share. So you need to make sure that they understand it so they don't understand objectivism. And you can't really go up to 'em and say, Hey, I'm an objective. I mean, they'll probably turn to you and say, well, I'm a Gemini. But what you can do is just simply tell them, look, I'm not going to ask you to do anything that purely benefits me, and I expect you to treat me the same way.
Speaker 2 00:11:52 Uh, tell them that if you're not going to bend on something, if you're not gonna bend on something, tell them that. Tell them that upfront. Let them know it's not going to be negotiable with you to bend on this particular act that you're not going to do it. Because typically people will expect you to, they'll think that that's just sort of a, a game you're playing, or a convenience or a contrivance. So don't let people let people know that you will not do anything that harms an innocent person. You know, another attribute of objectivism is that you cannot use people as a means to an end. So let people know that you're doing business with that. You won't do that, because if you don't, most people will assume that you will, because for the large, for a large majority of people, they're willing to do it next.
Speaker 2 00:12:58 And this relates to what I said is the most forgotten. And to me, the most important, understand the importance of keeping track of your values when you are confronted with a difficult choice. If you make an expedient decision in business that damages a key value of yours, you will not be able to enjoy whatever benefit you get from that decision. You will feel, and you should feel dirty about how you got to where you got to because you were willing to set aside something or someone of prime importance to you. Finally, you have to remember that the temptation you feel, and you will feel temptation sometimes to betray your ethical system. The temptation that you're feeling is that of a moral relativist. It is the devil on the objective's shoulder. If you give into it once, you'll regret it forever, everything, or forever. And remember, your re your reputation is everything.
Speaker 2 00:14:17 But that reputation is the opinion of yourself. And if you make an expedient decision, and if you forego your values, you will regret that decision, and you won't enjoy the outcome no matter how positive it is for you. So a good way to think of it is this, a rational voice doesn't mean going to be successful. It just means that if you aren't successful, you'll be able to live with the failed decision. You'll be able to live with the outcome. So those, those are the rules that I try to carry into my business life each and every day. So, but when I do that, what I discover is that I run into some real problems. So first of all, in the world in which we live, there are far more, far more Jim Taggarts than Dagney Taggarts. It's not even close. And there are virtually, you know, all of us as objectives.
Speaker 2 00:15:34 We know that we're not supposed to like altruism. Here's the good news. The good news is there's very few altruists in the world of business. Very few. But the bad news is there's even fewer objectives. And what you're gonna find in the world of business is that there's very few people that will live for your sake, but they will tell you that they'll live for your sake. And most people will try to get you to live for their sake, but they'll deny it. So they won't come right out and ask you to do that. But they'll expect you to do that. And they'll, they'll deny that that's what they're trying to do. So, um, most people, again, don't have an ethical system in business. So, and if they, if they say they do, or if they try to follow one of the systems, they'll find ways to cheat. Okay? So, um, here's what I want to do. I wanna share with you some of the things that you're gonna run into.
Speaker 2 00:16:43 All right? So the first thing is that other business people, when you're holding to an objectives ethical system, they're not going to believe you understand that most people will present themselves as being ethical, solid people. They'll present themselves that way, but the person on the other side of the table from you, they know that they'll bend, they'll, they know where they'll make exceptions. They know when they will use people, and they assume that most everybody is just like they are. So think of it this way, if we're using objectivist ethics, we're inside of a big giant game that's being played in the world of business every day. Now. We don't play the game. We refuse to play, but we're in the game whether we want to be or not. And that means that other people are not really gonna take seriously what it is that we're doing.
Speaker 2 00:17:49 And our strength of having these objectivist ethics will actually be perceived by them as being a sign of weakness. They will think that we're bluffing. So they'll think, because having objectivist ethics can actually really end up costing you money in real life. This can cause you to lose money. And they think that nobody's gonna walk away from something. Nobody's gonna be willing to be Howard Rourke and blow up the building. They won't believe it. And so, uh, you, you have to realize that when you won't capitulate to them, they'll resent you for that. All right? And that resentment will translate into aggressive sorts of retaliation against you simply for holding to your ethical values. So you'll lose some money with the Subjectivist ethics thing. You will, you're not gonna win all the time, and you're not gonna make all the money that you can make.
Speaker 2 00:18:58 But what you won't do is lose yourself. You're gonna face relentless temptation to adjust your values. Don't do it. Don't give in and allow yourself to have your values be changed or altered simply out of convenience. And I'm gonna share a story here at the end in a moment about something in real life that I just ran into that motivated this very conversation today. So when pe, when you hold to your ethical standards, the people around you will accuse you. They will, they'll say to you, you're being foolish. You're missing out. Uh, you're just being stubborn. You're losing money. You're only thinking about yourself. Watch out for that one. Because yes, we are only thinking about ourselves. And then also remember that your values are part of yourself. Those are part of you. And those values only exist because you exist. You're what gives them value.
Speaker 2 00:20:16 So these challenges that you're gonna face in the real world from applying objectiveist ethics can cause a lot of difficulty for you and a lot of kind of pain and, and suffering. Um, my personal story that I want to share with you, and then want to be able to open it up and really have a discussion about this, and I hope that people will, will challenge me. But recently, I was involved in a situation where I created a significant piece of work, a piece of work that had my heart and soul and dedication thrown into its creation. And then because there were multiple organizations involved, people who had no sense of objectivist ethics, people who were pure moral relativists, they were wanting to take that piece of work away. And they were threatening others if they didn't get it, if they didn't get to have it.
Speaker 2 00:21:22 And a lot of different people were going to be, be inconvenienced harmed. And in the end, I was faced with a decision. And the decision that I made, that I was faced with was, did I want to surrender? Not the integrity of that piece of work, but the ownership of it. And what I decided to do was surrender the ownership of it. And you can say, wow, he's not a very good objective. He just gave up something that, uh, was a work product of his. But in this very complex situation, one of the people who is, let's say on my side, they said to me, Brent, I understand what you're doing, but I feel terrible because the bad guys are about to win. And I said to that person in that moment, you've got it all wrong. I said, if I don't surrender this piece of work, five of my very important values, one of them, a primary value to me are going to be damaged and harmed.
Speaker 2 00:22:34 As a result. The bad guys aren't winning anything. They can think that they're winning, but my reputation is perfect because I'm satisfied with what I'm doing, and all of my values are protected. So that situation cost me money, but what it didn't do is cost me myself. And so I can live with it. And I don't just live with it. I am living with it with a smile on my face, because in my mind, I triumphed. And that is a very difficult thing for an objectives to make other people be able to understand. They don't get us because we don't live in the world the same way we they do. And we don't make decisions the same way we they make them. But my conscience is clean. And it was that story that I just shared briefly with you that inspired me to want to do this talk and be with all of you here today.
Speaker 2 00:23:38 So with that one more thought, just for fun, because we live in a very political world, and one of the questions that I get asked, and I I do tutor this stuff, one of the questions I get asked is, what about politics? You know, how does an objectives get involved in politics? It's such a dirty business, and everything that's done is imperfect. Every decision that gets made to move something along involves compromising on any one or more of those elements that I mentioned. And I think that the answer for an objectives when you get involved in politics, and I think you should, is that if the decision you're making is an imperfect one based on your ethical standards, but if it advances the nation or the community in a direction of more individualism versus more collectivism, then you can say, incrementally, I'm doing the right thing. Because a move in the other direction would be clearly wrong. And the decisions you're making in politics impact many, many people. Of course, you're representing others. So if you're an objectivist, do get involved in politics. But don't search for purity. You won't find it because with purity comes no progress. So those are the thoughts that I wanted to share, and I hope that from that we can have a fun conversation.
Speaker 1 00:25:12 Great. I'm glad to hear that. Uh, I've got some questions. I'm sure Lawrence does too. We want to invite, uh, everyone, uh, to raise your hands with some questions. Uh, we'll bring you up to the stage. Uh, we are, uh, glad to have Atlas Society founder David Kelly, uh, with us here today. I at least wanted to, uh, defer to him for any, uh, first question before we get, uh, going.
Speaker 3 00:25:42 Uh, thank you Scott, and thank you Brent. Uh, I, I have so many questions and I'm not sure where to start, so I'm probably gonna pass on that. I just wanna say, uh, Brent, that was very well spoken. Well put. Uh, I remember meeting you at the gala last fall, but we didn't have much chance to speak. So I I'm very happy to, um, have that chance today. Um,
Speaker 2 00:26:09 Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:26:09 I, at some point I would like to hear more about, um, your, your current work and what you're doing with, uh, human events and other, and the consulting business. But, um, that's, I'm, I'm gonna, um, defer for now to the other people on the, on this chat, um, to ask quite more que possibly more direct questions about, um, your, the content of what you said. So thanks. And, um, I'll hope to be back at some point.
Speaker 2 00:26:41 Thank you for the kind words.
Speaker 1 00:26:45 Great. Um, I'm just gonna jump in here with notes I was taking while you were talking. Uh, I've got some other questions too, but, uh, one, you said we can't persuade people to do something risky without, you know, and and so part of it is, you know, one of Ram's comments is that, uh, you know, life entails risk. So it's real. It's, I mean, to some extent we're talking about the degree of risk,
Speaker 2 00:27:12 Right? Well, here, let me put it to you this way. It is, um, if you're on the highway and you, uh, you are behind somebody and the speed limit is 65 and they're going 68, and you'd like to go 87, and you get up on their tail and you start to flash your lights at them because you want them to go faster or get outta your way, even though perhaps it's a crowded highway, I see that as an immoral act. Because what you're doing with that person who's already slightly going over the speed limit, is you're trying to force them to take a risk purely on your behalf. They're about to risk a ticket or their license or whatever it might be. And so in business, I'm a risk taker. I take risks all the time. But what I will not do under any circumstance is ask someone to take a risk with their position on my behalf. You can't go to a vendor and say, look, your product is, is wonderful, but I need you to cut some quality corners on it because I need to be cheaper. And oh, by the way, perhaps that could entail some liability, but if you want to get the deal, you need to cut those corners. You can't do that.
Speaker 1 00:28:36 Just even asking for a bank loan where if, uh, that person might be fired if you can't pay it back.
Speaker 2 00:28:43 Well, no, that's, that's comple that's completely different. That's completely different. The bank hires a person to make a loan. I used to be a loan officer, by the way, so I know a good deal about that. So the bank has lending criteria, and if the loan officer follows those criteria and the loan is made and the loan goes bad, yeah, the loan officer could get fired. But that's not because of anything that was done to break any rules or take any undue risk. It's because the people that run the bank are awful, terrible people. Now, if you go to the same officer, if you go to that same loan officer and you say, look, I am, uh, I'm gonna show a really big loss this month, but what I need you to do is I need you to just use my old financial statements from the month before and don't use these, okay?
Speaker 2 00:29:37 So I can get the loan that you can't do, you can't put the loan officer in a situation where you're asking them to risk their job deliberately on your behalf because, uh, you know that you'd benefit from it. But you have every reason to know that you're asking them to do something that is outside of the rules of their job, and that could get them fired and that should get them fired. You can think about it that way, Scott. Anybody could get fired for anything. It doesn't mean the firing was just, but you can't ask somebody to do something that they should get fired for. That's wrong. That's always wrong. And you can't do it. You just have to resist. You have to find a different way.
Speaker 1 00:30:27 That's fair. I'm just trying to make distinctions and, and find out where the line is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, now, uh, you did say that they need to understand our ethics. I mean, don't we really just need them to honor their contract?
Speaker 2 00:30:42 Well, what I'm, what I'm trying to do is let people know that it is best in your dealings with others to tell them upfront who and what you are. And again, you don't have to say, I'm an objectivist, cuz they will say, I'm a Gemini. Most people, most people have no idea what it is you're talking about. But it is very good to let people know going into any kind of voluntary transaction what your boundaries are. And you're not really doing that in a sense for them. You're doing it for yourself. Because when you let people know very clearly, this is what I intend to do and I will not do otherwise, then you're making your life a little bit easier because there will be many people who would say to you, depending upon the circumstances, well, if that's the case, then I'm not going to work with you.
Speaker 2 00:31:40 And your response should be, thank goodness, thanks for telling me. I'll move on. Because you should not, uh, put yourself through the process of having to unnecessarily deal with people who are going to ask you to compromise your ethical standards. You shouldn't do it. So it saves yourself, in this case, forget about them. You're doing yourself a favor by being clear upfront about what you will and won't do. You know, we talk about setting boundaries in relationships all the time. Well, we need to set boundaries in our business relationships. It's no different and it makes our life easier going forward.
Speaker 1 00:32:21 Good. Well, uh, go ahead, David.
Speaker 3 00:32:25 Uh, hey, I, I I have a question that relates to Scott's, um, uh, Brent. And it's about honesty. Honesty is an important principle, uh, for objectiveness and, uh, as, as it is for in within most ethical systems. Yep. Um, well, one of the things that's, I have found tricky in, um, you know, in applying it to real life. I've, I've worked in the university and, and nonprofit world, not business per se, but there are lot, there's lots of, um, common situations where you're not obligated to sit to tell the whole truth. Um, I don't think because information is, uh, an asset and I mean, just think of bargaining. Um, you know, my understanding, my, my sense of, of bargaining over say a, a deal or a salary or something mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is that you don't have to, you're not obligated, uh, by the principle of honesty to say what your reservation price is, that is the lowest price you would accept. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that, um, there, there's a certain strategic element in bargaining as in many things. Um, that's only one example of what how information, um, that you know and would ordinarily, you know, want to share, but sometimes, um, sharing it would be at, at some risk to yourself. It, have you encountered, um, uh, experiences that have helped you draw the line where to draw the line in that
Speaker 2 00:34:06 Sport? Sure. That, look, that's a great question. So, and a, a good deal of what I've been hired to do, especially over the last decade of my professional life, because I've gotten older, right? And so with old being older comes experience and wisdom. And so I've been involved where I've been hired directly for the purpose of negotiating something with someone. And so I'm gonna answer your question by quickly recapping, and I will do it quickly. The, the component parts of objectivist ethics, let's see. Can't ask somebody else to live for my sake, and I can't live for mine or theirs. I have to respect facts. I have to put reason over emotion. I have to think through cause and effect, and I have to understand and identify my values. There is nothing in that list, and I can't use people as a means to an end.
Speaker 2 00:34:58 So there's nothing in that list that says that if I'm trying to negotiate a deal and come to terms on which somebody will voluntarily exchange with me, where I can sell, they can buy, or we can work out of some difficult situation that says, I have to throw up everything I know on the table beforehand. There's nothing unethical about that. Now, there would be something unethical about it if I were portraying something to them that simply wasn't true, right? So I'm, I'm always careful with my clientele that when they're negotiating, don't lie. If you lie, you'll get caught. And when you get caught, you'll lose the negotiation because the other side will bury you for it. And they'll realize immediately that it's a sign of weakness. So it shrewd business, clever business dealings, good negotiation strategies are not asking you to break ethical rules within what it is you're doing.
Speaker 2 00:36:04 It is only when you're, when you find yourself, you know, being told by your boss, go sell, go sell this old couple rust proofing on a on a new car, right? Then you start to have to ask those questions of yourself, right? Because now you're, you're doing something that starts to cross those lines. But if I'm just simply gonna negotiate the price of the car with the people that are buying it, there's nothing at all that says I have to start with my best number. I can suggest a number, and when they like a number, they'll buy the car. And then we've satisfied Rand's requirement in that case for voluntary exchange and value for value. So, uh, it's a great question. And it's not that I see them as apples and oranges, and I'm, I'm not doing any sort of rationalization here. I mean, I, I work through my ethical principles that I just read off, and if I'm in a negotiating deal, I'm not gonna put those at jeopardy, but typically they're not at jeopardy, right?
Speaker 3 00:37:09 Yeah. Okay. Um, uh, tha thank you that, that's, that's helpful. Um, there's sometimes when there's just information you don't want to give out, and, uh, awkward situations like in, in sometimes interpersonal affair mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, are you sleeping with, uh, this person who's not your wife or your partner? Um, right. And, you know, if you don't answer, that's almost an answer. So it's, um, but I, I mean, the fundamental principle is don't you have nothing to gain under the principle of rationality by faking reality, but what counts as faking reality, um, can get, uh, can, can get tricky in, in everyday life, whether personal or business. So anyway, that, that's helpful. Thank you for the example,
Speaker 2 00:38:04 You know, in the, the business world, um, there have been many times where someone has asked me a question, and in it's a situation that is some form of an awkward situation in that setting. And I will look at them and say, look, I'm sorry, I simply can't tell you that. And yeah, you know, and, and, and, and doing that, um, then that person is free to draw their own conclusion from it. And, um, they can decide, uh, what that might mean. They can make all the inferences or guesses they want, but you're at least being direct and saying, that's something I can't answer. And, you know, and we get put in difficult spots in business because humans are fearful creatures by nature. And it started out with being afraid of losing your life, you know, getting eaten by a wooly mammoth or something, I suppose.
Speaker 2 00:39:02 But, uh, now, now we're fearful of a whole lot of more modern day things, uh, the greatest of which is losing your job or one of the great ones. And certainly in business, that's the one that, that we, we fear the most. But I just come back to what am I more afraid of losing my job or myself? And in the scenario I described in my, at the end of my remarks, I can tell you, well, this past year I was in three very difficult situations. I had the perfect storm of ethical crises. I had three of them in a 12 month period, and they were big, and all of them cost me some money. Uh, all of them cost me some anguish. None of them were easy, pleasant. But in all three cases, even though I walked away with my wallet a little bit lighter, my soul wasn't, and I was able to live with myself. And in one of those cases, it actually involved, um, my employment and I could have led to the loss of it. And I was willing to accept that loss. It didn't happen, but I was willing to accept it because otherwise I'd a lost myself. And I figured I can get more work. I can't get another me, right? They're all outta mes <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:40:25 Yeah, that's a great line. Uh, uh, we're gonna use that at, at some point. Thank you, Brent. Please,
Speaker 2 00:40:31 Please do, please do.
Speaker 1 00:40:33 Great. Uh, I do wanna bring, uh, MJ on. Thank you for your patience. Mj, go ahead, if you're able to unmute.
Speaker 4 00:40:44 Oh, yes, thank you very much. Um, I'm Mary Mallek. Um, sorry, I'm homesick with, so homesick with the virus here. So I'm fascinated by this having only found all of you two hours ago. Um, I, I'm gonna try to make this brief. I have so many thoughts going through my mind, but I've been in practice for over 30 years and am now daily at my office looking at my diplomas and licenses on the wall, waiting for the day when the morality and the ethics of my field have so shifted that I will no longer be able to hold to my ethics. And, and I anticipate really needing to resign from certain licensure rather than having them taken from me for violating them. So I think the point that was just made by Brent, you know, is well taken. Um, and I live in the constant state of that. And I sometimes, I think in the past it brought me fear, and now it brings me great resolve where I know that I, I can move forward in integrity with my ethics. Um, I, I would like to just contextualize the journey a bit and allow in the current world circumstances and shifts of
Speaker 4 00:42:00 Sure, uh, people around the attack. And, and that is a game changer. People pursuing mom psychotherapy, uh, under the veils of trying to, um, you know, create entrapment, frankly, ethical entrapment and, um, under cause of certain types of therapy under certain political views. And, um, and it, it got pretty vitriolic during covid, um, over one's health status. Um, and, and I, I must be honest, I mean, it rattled me to the very core, um, daily living in that, in that posture that at times got defensive and I had to really take a good solid look at what I was doing, why I was doing it, and how to move forward. Um, I can say so much more, but I, I'll I'll lay that out on the table right now just to, to bring that out into the open. And it's very fascinating for me to learn. I'm an objective. So <laugh>, thank you for this discussion.
Speaker 2 00:43:01 Wonderful. I, I sure hope you feel better. Look, uh, one of the, the great benefits of, uh, of going through the pandemic for me, uh, benefit in a perverse way is that if any of you find the, the willingness to write to me after this, and I by an email, I respond to everyone. And when I send you an email, you'll see at the bottom it says, PS Hobbs was right. And what I really should add to that now is PS Freud was writer. And when I say that, I'm talking about our nature. And what the pandemic did for me was validate what I had long thought. And that Hobbs is right about our nature, and we saw it come out and we saw it come out in people who otherwise were seemingly wonderful and kind and nice. We'd known them for years, and the next thing we know, they're picking up the telephone and reporting their next door neighbors for having a barbecue without masks.
Speaker 2 00:43:55 So we're fearful creatures. We are people, and this is so important in business. And this is the point, I'm, I'm glad you said what you said, cuz here's the point I want to bring out for people. I think this is so important. So most people don't operate with an ethical system, right? They try to behave in a way that they generally have learned is something that won't get them killed by others and allows them to get ahead, okay? Right? So they kind of feel their way. The more people they meet, uh, the more they learn, and the more they learn about, wow, this is kind of acceptable, and this isn't, and this is the way to behave. But when you don't have a system, what you're really on is a little bit of a treadmill. And so you can push somebody in your personal life or in the world of business, but what you don't know is how far you can push them before they'll abandon appearances and revert to their nature.
Speaker 2 00:44:55 And when they do that, they become that sort of hos hosan seeking pleasure and minimizing pain. And that becomes the construct for how they make decisions. You don't make decisions that way as an objective. You make them because you follow those principles and you always follow them, and you don't break, but they break. And you as a business person, you don't know when they're going to break. Now, I was involved with somebody this past year I worked with for a very long time, who had never given me any hint, any hint that they would ever, ever break from that generally behaving a way that people like, that they feel comfortable, that is pleasing. They never gave me indication. They didn't just break, they shattered. And when they did, it created a tremendous, uh, problem and difficult situation for me. So then what could I do?
Speaker 2 00:45:55 They broke. And so all I'm holding onto is my system with threats being made and values at stake. All I had to hold onto was a system. So I grabbed onto that and held, and I weathered the storm. But it was a great lesson for me that others, they're just kind of walking on that treadmill and you don't know when they're gonna slip back. You don't know what's gonna cause that. You don't know how far it is. They can be pushed before they revert to that sort of hobbie and creature. And that's fairly dark assessment of things. But that's the world that I seem to live in.
Speaker 4 00:46:36 Well, that's really honest, and I appreciate that. And I think I'd also like to bring up a point of hope in all of this, in that you cannot force someone to come to your objectiveness views and way of living. However, as I contemplate creating an entirely new path, because I've had to depart from training institutions that are no longer within my value set, uh, I can offer invitations to people who, who may be interested in that same journey, but, but don't have the courage or whatever it takes to start that new. So that new path. So I, I would like to just speak out to that, that there is a time if yes, fear, possibly great opportunity and great hope, but it requires us to be able to step out of what once was a system that was more, uh, aligned, if you will, with our values,
Speaker 2 00:47:31 Right? Well, we're, we're finding, especially, especially in the medical field, uh, the pandemic, uh, has put, uh, doctors in a position. And, and I spend a lot of time in the medical freedom movement. I'm on the board of directors for the Lanco Freedom Foundation. I co-wrote Doctors Lancos book with him, uh, prior to his passing, uh, in the middle of last year. So I spent a lot of time in the medical freedom movement and, um, have collected a, I guess, a better body of knowledge than the average person. Not because I'm smart, but because of what I do. And, uh, so we had doctors, um, during the pandemic faced with choices about being able to treat people and being told not to treat people. And this is a very interesting sort of dilemma to be in. If I go back to that car salesman selling rust proofing, if, if I'm a car salesman and my boss says, sell the rust proofing, or you lose your job, well, that's a tough spot, right?
Speaker 2 00:48:30 And I'm afraid, I'm afraid of what that'll do to me financially and professionally, and I might rationalize a way that I sell the rust proofing and it wasn't the right thing to do. And you know, and I don't feel good about it, but nobody dies. And what we've seen in the medical profession is doctors being faced and confronted with very difficult choices because perhaps their physician's group or their hospital they're a part of was telling them something not to do, and they were feeling very strongly about something to do, and then they knew the outcome of their decision could affect whether or not somebody lived or died. And these are very, very difficult spots that we were put in. And I think that the pandemic, if it did nothing else for us, it crystallizes some of those tough positions, those tough things that we're faced with. And then, uh, we, we, we take a look at who we are as people, and we take a look at how we handle those situations we were confronted with during the pandemic. And, um, as, uh, as my partner likes to say, do better, I think a lot of people could do better.
Speaker 1 00:49:42 Great. Just to, uh, push back, uh, a tiny bit on the view of humanity. Uh, maybe I'm too Pollyanna, the whole benevolent universe, uh, premise. I just think that people left to their own devices can be capable of good or bad, almost depending on, on where the culture is.
Speaker 2 00:50:04 Sure. I, I mean, I, I think that's, I wouldn't argue with that, that, that that's an influence. But, so here's my exp and it is my experience, right? And so I, whatever topic I lecture on, no matter where I am, the first slide I always put up is a bell curve. And I promise people it's the end of the statistics for the day, but I just kind of say, look, I'm gonna share my experience and observations with you and live under a bell curve. And there's exceptions to everything I say, and I also might be wrong about all of it, right? <laugh>. But, uh, so my observations after, you know, a career of close to 40 years in the world of business, and having been blessed because of what I do to be exposed to so many people in so many industries, so many businesses, uh, my experience is that virtually nobody has an ethical system.
Speaker 2 00:50:56 I think that Adam Smith, David Hume, that crowd, I think they were right, that most people do acquire their ethics simply by trial and error, observations, senses of what's right and wrong. But I do think that then when they get put in a situation that is uncomfortable, and that's the key, right? It's not about what movie do I go see? There's no ethical dilemma here. Oh, my, my partner wants me to go see a chick flick, and I wanted to see a John Wayne movie. You go see the check flick. You didn't just violate your ethics, okay? But when people are put in very, very difficult situations where things are at stake, that compromise the kinds of things we were talking about at the beginning of this talk, then what will they do? And my contention is that absent a system, you have nothing to turn to.
Speaker 2 00:51:49 You have only yourself to turn to, and then most people are gonna hedge and they're gonna satisfy themselves in terms of that idea of averting pain and trying to maximize pleasure. But no two people are the same. No two people have the same threshold. Some people could go all the way to the wall and actually hold out and do what we would all sort of consider the right thing. Others will jump at the chance to do something otherwise very, very quickly. And most people are somewhere in between. Our gift as objectives is that we have a system that if we use it, we don't have to worry about how far we're pushed because we have something to actually turn to and use. That I think is the gift. It's actually emancipated to adopt this ethical system. You're not alone. I'm never alone When I'm in a tough spot, I'm never alone. I've got this to carry with me.
Speaker 4 00:52:52 Well, and I'll add Scott, in response to what you said too, is that whether people are not good, good or bad, or in the middle, you've said that it depends on where society is. And if it's not evident already, our society is in a downward spiral more rapidly than it ever has been. So to Brent's point, without an internal structure, um, I think that that sort of Pollyanna view falls flat on his face, that, that people's real colors are, are truly being revealed. Um, that, that, um, the wizards, the wizards curtain has dropped.
Speaker 1 00:53:27 That's a fair point. It's just that we ultimately need to appeal to the better angels of some of these people to help turn things around.
Speaker 2 00:53:35 You can appeal to them, but you can't rely on them, but you can rely on yourself. And, you know, if, if there's any thread that runs through all of Objectivism, that's constant. It is that notion of individual responsibility and your own reason. And, um, you know, and I, I always like to joke with people before I start speaking. I say that I come from a mixed philosophical marriage. I'm, I'm half objective. So my pronouns are I, and me, and I'm half Catholic. So I feel guilty about my choice of pronouns. Uh, and one of the things I love about the Atlas Society is your inclusion of people who aren't pure purists. And that's, that's a very wonderful thing. But, um, from, in terms of society and where people are and who they are and what they're doing, um, look, whether God gave it to us or it comes from nature, we have three tools that nothing else has, uh, no other living creature has as volitional, uh, beans.
Speaker 2 00:54:35 We have reason, conscience, and free will. And you can say that God gave them to us, or you can say they're just innate in nature. It doesn't make any difference to me. I'm kind of half and half, but I do know that I have those with me all the time. Nobody can take them away, and I can bring them to every single encounter I have. And I don't care what's going on in society, I have to deal with it, but I'm not gonna let it drive me because I'm gonna use those three gifts. I'm gonna use my ethical system, and I'm gonna remain a constant straight line. And I don't care how it varies around me, I'm gonna stay constant.
Speaker 4 00:55:17 And, and to your point, Scott, and, and to, again, dovetail on Brent, I think we can offer an invitation, not a, not an effort to coerce or force or judge, but an invitation to that very straight path.
Speaker 1 00:55:31 Sure. Lawrence.
Speaker 0 00:55:34 Yeah. Uh, Brent, thank you so much for doing this. This has been a really interesting hour. We're coming up to the end here, so I'll try to keep my question short. Sure. But kind of wanted to get your thoughts, uh, sort of on that business ownership side of things. Like you were talking about with Lockdowns. You know, we saw a lot of your small businesses, mom and pop stores being shuttered, and governments saying, you can't operate, but the big box mart, like the Walmart and the Target, you are good to go. So it seems that there has been a shift, at least from what I've noticed, of people saying, oh, we need to try to cozy up more to government, make deals, backhand stuff, to make agreements for us to get ahead, because clearly we can't do it on our own. So people are saying, regardless of their principles, government's the way to go. That seems to my general sense of what I've seen from how people are operating, do you get sort of a similar feel that's the direction more private and government businesses trying to merge together?
Speaker 2 00:56:38 Oh, oh, absolutely. Look, um, a a a small example of it, uh, that's very specific, but related to my old profession. We were talking about banking. When I started in banking close to 3 million years ago. Uh, the small business administration, the SBA could not make a loan to a business unless a bank had turned that borrower down three times. So three different banks had to reject you, and then you could go and get a loan from the sba. Now, when you go into a bank as a small business, the bank goes immediately to the sba and they won't underwrite the loan unless the SBA approves it. So instead of the lender of last resort, they are the lender of first choice. That's a great specific example in they're everywhere. But, and then to, to wrap up the question I, I entered into the whole thing about the problem of dealing with this in the real world by saying there are far more Jim Taggarts in the world, the Dagney Taggarts, you find a Dagney Taggart hold onto her, and you won't have to look though to find a Jim Taggart.
Speaker 2 00:57:41 They're everywhere. And this private public partnership that antiseptic, uh, sort of, you know, the three Ps, private public partnership, uh, that sounds so neat and clean and nifty. That is a poison that has infected our culture. You're right to point out, it's only increased. Uh, it is a deviation and a betrayal of all objectives. Ethics, anyone who believes in free markets should be grotesquely offended by it. And it's something that we're not gonna reverse anytime soon because it's been underway for a very long time in migrating in that direction. And like I said, the SBA used to be the lender of last resort. Now they're the lender of first choice. And we can play that out through all sorts of industries, all sorts of different things in American business.
Speaker 1 00:58:34 Great. Well, uh, this has been, uh, a great, uh, topic. I'm really glad that you did it. We talked about some, uh, you know, important issues, I think. Um, and we've got, uh, the Atlas Society has some other events coming up this week. You'll want to check out, um, tomorrow at 5:00 PM Eastern the Atlas Society asks Eric July, uh, comic book phenom creator, and, uh, then ATS 7:00 PM Eastern Steven Hicks presents, educations, villains and Heroes. Session eight, GAU and Postmodernism. Uh, and then, uh, Thursday at 6:00 PM we'll be back here on Clubhouse with Richard Salzman and David Kelly talking about anti-Semitism and anti-capitalism. Looking forward to that. So, uh, we've got a lot of great things going on. We encourage you to visit
[email protected]. And, um, Brent, we, uh, hope to, uh, see you in the future at, uh, some other events. Thank you very much, and thanks to everyone for joining us. Take
Speaker 2 00:59:42 Care. Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 0 00:59:43 And Brent, where can we follow you? If, if people are interested to know more about what you're doing? Real
Speaker 2 00:59:48 Quick? Uh, if you, uh, if you wanna find some of the things I've written, you can go to human events.com. And if you want to learn about our, uh, college and high school program designed to actually get people talking like this about difficult issues and bringing young people together to, instead of argue and debate and hate, but to listen and reason and have constructive engagement, uh, go to common ground campus.com and, uh, see what we're doing there. And, uh, recommend a school, a high school, or a college near you for the program. So those would be the two places.
Speaker 0 01:00:24 Perfect. Thanks so much. And thank you all for joining us again, and hope to see y'all next time.
