Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Thank you for joining today. I'm Scott Schiff, hosting Atlas Society founder David Kelly and senior scholar Richard Salman on the Insidious Tie between the rise of Anti-Capitalism and Anti-Semitism. We'll give each of them a chance to give their opening thoughts. Then we'll be taking questions from the audience, so we encourage you to raise your hands and we'll bring you up on stage. Uh, we encourage you to share the room. Thank you both for doing this important issue. David, we'll start with you. Uh, maybe you could start with what, uh, briefly with what inspired the topic.
Speaker 1 00:00:40 Uh, yes, that's actually where I was absolutely going to start. Uh, Scott. Thank you. Uh, and, uh, hello everyone. Um, the occasion for this, uh, clubhouse, uh, and the, uh, topic of antisemite antisemitism and anti-capitalism, uh, is the fact that there has been a widely noted, uh, increase in antisemitic incidents over, I don't know, some years. Uh, I'm sure people saw in, uh, I think it was November, uh, the, you know, the stupid, uh, dinner that Trump had with Kanye West. And, uh, Nick Ententes, just Kanye West is, has been widely quoted as saying, I ends the quote, I am going decon three on Jewish people. Um, I, I, I, I don't know why Kanye West is, uh, uh, a celebrity. Uh, he's certainly not, um, you know, uh, you know, well versed in either moral or political philosophy, and I have no idea where he is coming from.
Speaker 1 00:01:51 But that is an indication. Um, there's, at the same time, there have been widespread reports of hostility to Jewish students on campuses, um, mo that's mostly over any support for Israel that is voiced, uh, or that, you know, uh, for example, the Berkeley Law School recently, uh, nine student groups at the law school banded together to, uh, amend their bylaws. So, in order to exclude any Zionist speaker from ever speaking at the law school, and by Zionists, they don't necessarily mean the hardcore Zionist political philosophy that, uh, began in the late 19th century, um, and ultimately was a factor in the state of, uh, creating the state of Israel. But, uh, this is so loosely interpreted that even any support for Israel, um, in its, uh, you know, conflict, uh, especially the conflict with the, uh, Palestinians and other Arab countries, is taken as, as Zionism and now banned by the school.
Speaker 1 00:03:03 Uh, the, definitely the Justice Department is investigating this as a violation of free speech, uh, again, uh, to look at some numerical data. The Anti-Defamation League, which, uh, fracks, um, incidents of anti-Semitism in 2021, the last full year report they have, um, there were 2,700 of those, uh, which represents a almost 30% increase over two years ago, uh, 2019. Um, now a lot of those, the majority in fact, are cases of so-called harassment. And I take any reference to harassment with a grant of assault because I know something about the fuzzy boundaries of it, uh, especially in connection with, uh, sexual harassment. But there were, there was a 44% increase in assaults and, um, slight decline in vandalism, but still almost a thousand cases of vandalism against, mostly against synagogues and other Jewish, uh, venues. So there's no doubt that em, anti-Semitism and these, these in incidents that can be identified as motivated by anti-Semitism or on the increase, uh, so far.
Speaker 1 00:04:33 I think the worst example, the worst case was in 2018 when a white nationalist, uh, uh, guy worked on, walked into the Cree of live synagogue in Pi Pittsburgh, and killed, uh, 11 people, including four policemen. And synagogues have had to take a lot of protective measures, um, just to protect themselves. Uh, so it's, it's a real phenomenon. Um, the current commentary about it and analysis, um, points to a couple of trends and causes. Uh, for one thing, it doesn't appear that, um, religious conviction and hostility among religions among believers is, um, a prominent source currently. Um, there it's, uh, more secular based, um, the American. And so that's number point number one. Point number two is that antisemitic, vandalism and assaults are part of a much wider, larger increase in crime in general. Uh, a group called Americans for Americans Against Antisemitism did a study in New York City, um, over, over several years, I think it was three or four years.
Speaker 1 00:06:00 They, they found 118 potentially crackable individuals who were arrested for anti-Jewish hate crimes. Um, and, uh, only one of those 118 was convicted and sentenced to a significant prison term. And, you know, just looking at the, anecdotally at some of the incidents that, you know, in, in, uh, particularly in Brooklyn, um, where there quite a few Jews, um, as there are throughout the boroughs in New York City, uh, there, there were, you know, incidents of, uh, young guys, you know, assaulting Jewish men, usually elderly men who are out in the street. And, uh, but they tend to be let off partly because of the, you know, the, the kind of very liberal regime of cutting out bail, defunding, police, et cetera. So they're just not being prosecuted that much. Uh, so there's a, and you know, antisemitism is only one example of, uh, the decline of, at the increase in crime, which is much across the board in lar in a larger scale, uh, over the last couple years.
Speaker 1 00:07:20 But, um, it's significant. And in New York City anyway, you know, Jews are disproportionately victims, um, of this kind of thing, especially the Orthodox Jews who can be easily identified by their clothing, their hair, um, et cetera. Um, but many of the assailant, um, apparently are not. So, you know, they don't fit in any standard category. They're mostly prior criminals, people with prior records, and they're just, you know, they're picking up on antisemitism, um, as an excuse for violence. They would perpetuate one way or the other. So, a more serious issue though, is that anti-Semitic incidents are perpetuated by people on both the left and the right on the side of, uh, on the right wing side, so-called, um, we have the white supremacists and, uh, uh, Neo-Nazis, uh, Nick Fuentes, that, um, other guy who met with Trump is an example of that, motivated by all kinds of things.
Speaker 1 00:08:39 But, um, I mean, one, one common factor is that they, uh, they blame Jews for some reason, for, um, the influx of illegal immigrants across the southern border. Why Jews are responsible for that. I don't know. I thought Biden was. But anyway, um, so there's, there's that on the right. Um, but of course, you know, the new Nazis, um, and white supremacists could, when they say white supremacists and, and are afraid of so-called great replacement theory, that is white people, meaning white, mainly white Anglo-Saxon people. Wasps are gonna be displaced by Mexicans and all kinds of, uh, other ethnic groups. Um, somehow Jews stand out, um, as easy targets for that. On the left, as I've, you know, indicated in talking about the Berkeley Law School, um, there's a big growth in anti, uh, anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian thought on the part of the, uh, the left.
Speaker 1 00:09:53 Uh, historically, there was also black nationalism going back to Louis Farhan. Um, and up through, uh, apparently, uh, Kanye West have refused to use his alleged new name. Um, uh, and, um, there's a good deal of anti-capitalism, which I think Richard is gonna talk a lot more about the connection between anti-Semitism and anti-capitalism. So I'm gonna leave that for him. But I want to, um, turn to, uh, more philosophical issue. You know, anti-Semitism has a long, long history, uh, and the death toll from that motivation, and those, and the practices associated with it, uh, is just appalling from medieval times, uh, through the 20th century pilgrims in East Russian and Eastern Europe, which caused a great deal of Jewish immigration to this country at the time. And, and through, of course, uh, and horrendously the Holocaust, uh, under Nazi Germany, anti-Semitism is a hard-headed monster.
Speaker 1 00:11:11 It has many sources, many motives, many versions, many tropes. And, um, it's, it's very easy. I mean, there's so many conspiracy theories out there, for example, that they, you know, the economy, world economy is run by Jews, um, at, at the root, the Rothchild family, I don't know if they're big in banking anymore, but, um, they were. Um, and so there's a, on top of the fact that antisemitism is such a multi multifaceted phenomenon. And secondly, there's such a vast literature on it, um, which includes analysis based on religious, on grounds, on ethnic hostility, cultural factors, economic, and of course, philosophical. So, Richard, and I don't consider ourselves experts in this literature, but what we hope to do today, um, is to bring an objective perspective to the current phenomenon. So, I wanna say a few things on from that philosophical perspective. And then, uh, to turn the floor over to Richard.
Speaker 1 00:12:31 One is, this is a clearly an example of tribalism, uh, of group identity and identifying people, as you know, you evaluating them by the group membership, um, which can be ethnically based and or religiously based, or based on an Indian or of other things, country of origin, whatever. Um, in the case of Judaism, of course, Jud Jews have a long history, um, in, in the West of, uh, losing their homeland, um, Israel and, um, Judah, um, under the Romans several millennia ago. And it being, um, scattered in a vast diaspora, um, and only recently in the formation of the state of Israel, um, having a place that is kind of safe to go home to, um, there, that doesn't mean everyone is Jewish, is in support of Israel. Many Jews are, uh, you know, if you just read even a modest amount of literature, um, will, will say, you know, have many criticisms of the Israeli government and its practices and so forth. So this anti anti, um, Israel or cri criticism of Israel is not identical, uh, at least in my view, with anti-Semitism, but they merge sometimes, um, critically on the left. And this tribalism, um, is a phenomenon that objectives have been aware of. Iran wrote a lot about it back in her day, and it's, a lot of what you said is still true. It's treating people as members of a certain group, uh, rather than as individuals. It's anti individualists.
Speaker 1 00:14:33 And in that respect, um, first of all, I would say the, uh, both left and right are guilty of this. The left, uh, the right, the white supremacists, um, are an obvious example. But the left, you know, the identity politics that flourishes in so many places now, as a result of long trends over the last half century, from post-modernism and other, uh, and developments of that, um, have not, you know, have taken tribalism, which arguably you could say, that's part of human history, part of human dispositions, um, under a liberal regime, uh, enlightenment attitude. Um, we put that aside and just free pupils individuals. But the, uh, under on the left, the, uh, the tribalism has now been, uh, has been articulated as, as identity politics. It has been defended explicitly, and the individual gets lost in it in all of that. So that's one fact, one philoso aqua factor that objectivism, I think, um, uh, can contribute to this understanding. The second one I wanna mention is, um, and this is really unique to Objectivism, is the, the role of altruism.
Speaker 1 00:16:14 Altruism has two different factors. One is you sacrifice to help other people, okay? That's part of the message of Jesus in the New Testament. But there's a second element, which is, you know, a blessed outta the poor, for they shall inherit the earth to quote from the be attitudes that is, there's, there's a conflict between those in power and those who are not in power, and the powerless are morally superior to the power, people with power. And it's interesting in this regard that, um, uh, uh, writer, um, Seymour, uh, Lipe in the 1970s made a good point about, uh, Israel, that before the six day war, and I think that was what, 67, um, when Israel just wiped out the attacking Arab armies quickly and decisively, um, the, uh, Israel and the, the Jews stopped being a victim that had the sympathy of liberal people, and they became a superior group.
Speaker 1 00:17:31 And that's only expanded with their success and prowess in technology science. And many of the fields, they've made the desert bloom, so to speak, and put to shame the, uh, the lack of progress and lack of development on the part of many, uh, of the Palestinians in particular. So, um, now the Jews and Israel in particular are in the ruling class. They're the, they have, uh, all the power. What, what the woke philosophy, and I'm gonna use that word, uh, as a summary term, I, you know, it's hard to define, but the woke victimhood, um, uh, outlook is, first of all, in place of reason. We have this social convention. There's no way to step outside our social views and, uh, for anyone to step outside them. The secondly that what drives and determines the content of the conventions that we have is power.
Speaker 1 00:18:42 So everything you hear about, you know, systemic racism, all, what that really means is that certain people, whites in particular have, um, are, are, are rich, successful because they have power, and they exert that power through racist and, um, uh, identity hostility toward others. So, uh, and, and what that means is that in society now, according to this point of view, there are oppressors and oppressed winners and losers, and anyone identified as a loser. Uh, any group that is, uh, minority, uh, whether, again, whether it's ethnic, religious, or whatever, is, uh, has this elevated moral status, like the poor can inherit the earth, and those who are successful are successful, not through trade, not through ability, but individual ability. Uh, individual trades with other people, but only through power. And their exercise of power has to be curtailed and cut. This is the element of altruism, the inversion of, uh, uh, standard of, of elevation.
Speaker 1 00:20:19 Not that people who are successful or wealthy have any right to rule over anyone else, but they, the question is whether as the individuals, they earned what they have or not. So, I think we, we appeal, uh, we'd have to appeal here if you wanna understand this too. Um, the idea that the Jews are successful, um, whether they're in finance, law, many other fields, and, um, Israel is successful as a country, and that makes them bad guys. So I'm gonna leave it there, and, uh, um, let's let, uh, Richard pick up the story from here and, and go deeper on some of these issues. Uh, thanks everyone.
Speaker 2 00:21:09 Thank you, David. That was, uh, that was great. That was a good introduction and analysis. And I, I want to focus on the, uh, connection between anti-Semitism and anti-capitalism, which, um, you might think would be more written upon than it has been. So, I think our objectivism has a lot to offer here. But before I begin, I, uh, my study of this has led me to materials that you really should know about. So those of you who wanna explore this further, uh, let me just name but a half a dozen things that I've read that are really very good. Um, the, the best probably is Jerry Mueller, m u l l e r, the Jews and Capitalism. That's a book 2010. He's a professor at a university in dc It is excellent. He is pro capitalist. I wouldn't say he's an objective, but he's pro capitalist. And he's very good on looking at the traits of Jews, again, without stereotyping, and the essence of capitalism, which I'll talk about a bit more. And how animosity toward those roots lead to animosity toward both, um, the Jews as a class, and capitalism as a system. Oh, and then also capitalists.
Speaker 2 00:22:37 Another good one is, uh, just broadly on anti-Semitism and more recent Phyllis Goldstein, a convenient hatred subtitled to history of anti-Semitism. That's 2012. That one is remarkable. Just for the long scope of, uh, how long this has been going on. She has various chapters in there. I, I believe it's an edited volume. I, I can't recall. But, uh, starting with, you know, 600 BC <laugh> on the way up to now, uh, by the way, with an interlude, which should be interesting to objectivism, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, the best period for the Jews, for treatment of the Jews, for treatment of what we'll see on lending Usery, uh, freedom to move, freedom to trade toleration in the laws, um, should not be surprising to people that that was best during the best of man's history. The Renaissance and Enlightenment, especially the Enlightenment 100 year period, roughly 16 90, 17 90.
Speaker 2 00:23:42 Here's another one, Milton Friedman, the famous, uh, Chicago economist, and obviously Jewish, the Jews and Capitalism, 1988, that's not a book, but it's an essay, and it's easily retrievable. By the way. All these things are easily retrievable. You don't have to go buy the books. They are online at something called Internet Archive. Now, sometimes if they're older than 95 years, you can just pull down a pdf, but even if they're newer than that, you can borrow them on that. It's perfectly legal. It's, it's a commercial arrangement. Internet archive. Another one, Daniel De Leon, I'm going a little older now. Anti-Semitism, it's causing cure. 1921, Bernard Zair, L A z a r e. Anti antisemitism. It's history and causes 1903, uh, Scher, S C H O M E R, the primary cause of anti-Semitism, 1909. These older ones are more interest, uh, are interesting because of course they proceed the horrors of Nazi Germany.
Speaker 2 00:24:42 So it's interesting to see what was being said on the precipice of World War I and, uh, the Holocaust, world War ii. One that I really recommend, uh, in regards to the connection between antisemitism anti-capitalism, is Burner Sobar, S O M B A R T, the Jews and Modern Capitalism. Now, that's a 1913 work. And it's interesting cuz Sun Bart's a socialist, but he's a socialist who understands what capitalism is, almost in the way that Marx did. You know, Mark's saying in effect that it was the system of reason Egoism the private motive, of course, but their judgment was, it was evil. But Sun Bart actually draws a lot of interesting ties that I'll mention between Jewish traits, history, values, and, and capitalism on the negative side, but still worth reading. Carl Marx on the Jewish Question, which is an essay, also easily retrievable 1844.
Speaker 2 00:25:39 Uh, Marx was an anti-Semite. And, uh, lastly before I forget, Jo Own Brook, an objectives, obviously the morality of money lending a short history, which includes, um, discussions of the banning of charging, of interest on lending and the role of the Jews in becoming lenders. That's in the objective standard fall 2007. Now as, uh, just the thematically, um, going back to old versus New Testament, there are, uh, obvious passages, uh, which ha which proved very influential, uh, uh, specifically against money lending, uh, cause this, uh, precedes even Aristotle. But Aristotle himself said, money is Barron and you shouldn't be able to make money from money. So there's a long history we know of just a suspicion of any kind of wealth that arises from anything other than physical labor. And that very bias would, of course, privilege. Things like farming, working the land, manufacturing, getting your hands dirty, and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 00:26:48 Now, for various reasons that we don't have time to get into, the Jewish people, uh, specialized in intellectual affairs, in academic affairs, in studying the Torah and the Talmud, Talmud being the interpretations of the Torah, uh, they prized learning. They prized air edition. They prized intellectual pursuits, and in, for various reasons, either being banned from owning land or working land, or because engaged in husbandry, they, uh, worked in trade, in international trade, in what was called commerce in the retail sector, in the banking sector, in finance. But, but early on, and even today, as you know, there is a prejudice against those who make money in those areas, because again, it's seen as distant from the more physical aspects of producing things. But in Ayn Rand's terms, the men of the mind, you know, are the premier primary contributors to wealth creation. Not the, it's not that physical labor doesn't create wealth, but, but intellectual capital, intellectual labor produces far more that pure pyramid of abilities.
Speaker 2 00:28:02 She speaks about, uh, in Atlas Shrug. So, so the anti-Semitism and anti-capitalism, uh, shares those kind of, um, biases and prejudices, and to the extent, and it really is to a great extent, that the history of the Jews make them predominant in those areas, also make them prominent as targets for succeeding, uh, in those areas. There's also an interesting history that once becoming prominent in finance, this is, again, pre 1800, the Jews became financiers of the state of the, of monarchs and others, so on, on, and, and including some churches and clerics, <laugh>. So, so in public, these figures would denounce the Jews, but behind the scenes they would borrow from them. And it turns out that that, and plus their access to luxuries. Now get this, this is so weird. I did not know this until I read it more recently. Access to the luxuries that monarchs and royals would want.
Speaker 2 00:29:09 Spices, special clothing, luxuries, jewels, gems, diamonds, precious metals, <laugh>, you know, the, the stereotype we have of the Jews specialize in those. Yes, because they were considered either dirty by other religions or they were special, uh, providers to the royalty for these things is what royalty wanted. There's also an interesting aspect of, uh, ment. David mentioned the diaspora, the idea of the Jews not having, being a little more nomadic, whether, whether culturally wishing that, or by the fact that they were banned and moved around so much. The, um, there, there's theories out there that the being spread all over the world. They had and retained connections because they had cultural affinities, were good at international trade because they weren't provincial, because they were more cosmopolitan, because they were more worldly. And of course, that is a unique feature of capitalism. The idea of today global, everyone hates globalism.
Speaker 2 00:30:13 Everyone hates the idea that capitalism spreads all over the world. Well, to the extent that the Jews have promoted that and participated in that, they're hated for that. Uh, as well, again, I'm focusing here mostly on the economic stuff, quite apart from the more religious and ethnic stuff about their, the chosen people self considered. You know, and that's considered arrogant, or that they did not recognize, you know, the divinity of Jesus. So a lot of hatred from the Christian side over the centuries for that reason. Or the idea of dii, the idea that if Jesus's God or God incarnate, they killed God. Uh, so all those things are, are behind the scenes as well. Now, the, there's interestingly, in Sobar there's this fascinating section about things like customers. Now the, the Christian tradition had been, cus a customer is someone who customarily comes to you.
Speaker 2 00:31:05 It's a custom, it's a regularity, it's a habit. And the Jews had the view of, no, you go out and get customers, you go out and compete <laugh> and, uh, lu customers with lu is even a biased word, right? It sounds like a bias word. Um, by, uh, competing, competing, competing actively, and not being passive in your competition to, to conduct sales, to put out the wares in a, in a, an attractive manner and in, in effect, advertising. So that, so the origins of advertising are, are the Jewish view of no, you must actively go out and convince others to buy your stuff. And that was considered crude and low and based by the Christians. And they were hated for that. They were also hated for price cutting. The Jews were known historically for the ones to say, well, if I can compete on anything other than nothing other than price, then I'm gonna try to find a way to cut prices and get customers that way.
Speaker 2 00:32:00 That was considered wrong. Uh, even though on the other hand, they were also considered as price gougers and profit, uh, maximizers. So e either way guilty, right? Um, and in cases where the Christian com trying to compete was crashing their head, like, how did the Jews do so well in retail and elsewhere? Uh, I seem to have the same cost structure as a, it must be by cheating. So Sobar and others have Mueller and others in these have, have indicated, um, the origins of the idea that they're cheats and they're swindlers because succeeding economically, not only in areas that are more mental, psychological, you know, versus physical, but that they're succeeding on it and cutting prices. How could they be cutting prices other than by some ruse? Um, hate to say it, but fast forward to today, and in economics and neoclassical economics, there's still something called the perfect competition model.
Speaker 2 00:32:58 And, uh, from Frank Knight with Chicago School, 1920s. And in it, it has a whole bunch of, um, criticisms of differentiating your product of advertising. If you don't differentiate your product, if all products are homogeneous in quality, you, there's no need to differentiate 'em. So advertising itself is an imperfect part of the market. So, I mean, some of these things are still left over from, uh, centuries of, uh, prejudice. A couple of other things I wanna focus a bit on. Usy, USY, the old word for literally lending money at any interest, it later became known as lending money at a high interest. But the lending of money at all, add interest called usy is, was condemned for centuries. And Deuteronomy and elsewhere says, however, there's a kind of, uh, there's a kind of opening where it says you can lend to others just not to your brother, meaning the Jews can lend to others who were non-Jews, and that would be acceptable.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 And there was no such outlet on the Christian side. So there's theories that that's why the Jews became lenders. But in becoming lenders, they were still hated for years because it wasn't really until the enlightenment that you had essays defending, uh, the taking of interest, uh, the charging of interest. Um, Aquinas was against it. I already said Aristotle was, but even up until Aquinas was against it, Voltaire, believe it or not, was against it. Sadly, Voltaire's really great, but he was an anti-Semite something because he was just anti-Christian. And the Jews gave us Christianity. So Voltaire hated all religions, but not until Jeremy Bentham the utilitarian Brit 1759 in defensive usy and a very, really excellent essay. The precursor to that may be John Locke, 1695. The Great Locke did have a short essay. I don't know how influential it was defending the taking of interest. The only difference there being the interest shouldn't be too high, but at least it was a defensive interest. So, um, the animosity toward, I said this before, but just to stress it, the animosity toward finance, um, is, um, it contributes both the anti-Semitism and the anti castle to this day. And from the time of Marx, the idea is finance is parasitical. It's not productive. It doesn't add anything to the economy, it's just moving and shuffling, uh, paper around.
Speaker 2 00:35:27 Um,
Speaker 2 00:35:32 I think I'll stop there. I don't want to take up too much time. I know David and I want to, um, take questions and comments and go further. Uh, I have a lot more to say that as David said, he's absolutely right. The lit, lit literature on this is enormous. I think our value added would be to conceptualize it and focus people's attention on what's worth reading and what's not. The fact that, as David said, it persisted today, uh, I, I would think suggest a philosoph cause and, but I found the same thing David did. I have found over the years there, the antisemitism can come from religion, it can come from ethnic, uh, cons, aspects, cultural, racial, economic. I'm here focusing on the, the economic. But as an economist, I admit entirely that economics is downstream from Philosoph principles and, and others. Marx is on the Jewish question, by the way, a historical aside that might be of interest, um, to you, it's a fact that in the 18, um, roughly 18, 15 to 1850 period, I think Mueller talks about this in Germany, the Jewish question that, in that phrase was, was ubiquitous.
Speaker 2 00:36:49 And one of my sources cited 2,500 works in Germany between 18 50 15 and 1850 quote on the Jewish question, where the, the bias was toward how do we get rid of the Jews, how do we restrict the Jews, how do we rob the Jews? It's really disgusting stuff. And I think interesting also because we know that that is the period of the counter enlightenment. That is the kind of Hegelian period, right? So Hagle dominant in the early 18 hundreds in Germany, and the young Alians who were utopian socialists, and Mark said, you're two utopian, you need to be more militant and militaristic, and you need to use force to overgrow capitalism. But Marx is on the Jewish question is 1844, the young mark right in the middle of all this. And he's responding to a guy named Bruno Bauer. Bruno Bauer, b a u e r, Bruno Bauer, 1843, a young alion, an anti-Semite.
Speaker 2 00:37:50 And, and for Marx's tastes two mild, two mildly antisemitic. And Marx's and, and angles himself were both, and they're, what they're interest, what's interesting about them is they both say, because the Jews are egoistic, because the Jews are rational, they call it rationalistic, but they mean aite. They mean they work with their brains. And they, and now think of the parallels to objectivism. Objectivism is saying, yes, the these are virtues and they're central to capitalism, but if you sign, you find a cert and they're good things, right? Not to be con. So it's not as if the Bruno Mark Bowers and the Marxs don't recognize what we recognize. They just hate it for deeper, obviously deeper philosophic reasons. So I I, I think that's, uh, interesting just as an aside, but, um, the other great wave of antisemitism writings come starting roughly in the 1880s. So there was a respite for, I don't know, for 30 years or so, but then it becomes virulent again starting in the 1880s in Europe.
Speaker 2 00:38:59 Last thing, I'll leave, David started with some stats on anti-Semitism in today's time. Just to add to that, I, I found a study, uh, not so much trend over time, but regionally, so the a, I think it was the adl, I don't have it in front of me, but a study was made of an, of, of attitudes toward the Jews, geographically, like all the, all over the world. And this may not surprise you, but in terms of the distribution, the most anti-Semitic, obviously Middle East and Africa, Northern Africa. But, um, second is Eastern Europe. Uh, next is Western Europe. So this is getting like less and less anti-Semitic, south America, and then North America. So North America, even though the trend might be bad more recently as a general rule, as North America is much more tolerant and pro Jew, or at least not anti-Semitic relative to the rest of the world.
Speaker 2 00:40:02 And again, the worst is Middle East. And second might surprise people. The Eastern, there's a residue of Eastern, uh, Europe, of course, the Soviets, uh, were also anti-Semitic in treatment of the Jews. Uh, many of the dissidents of the seventies and eighties soccer off and others choose. Um, so, um, I just wanted to make that last point also about the distribution geographically. So I'll stop there. I think David and I kind of agreed to stop at 40 minutes, so I hope that some of that context helps and some of those resources are helpful to you.
Speaker 0 00:40:33 That is great. Um, I do wanna invite people to, uh, join us by raising your hands. Um, I have, uh, you know, uh, just some questions as well. I think, um, you know, in, in history, I, I think not only the Jews but the, the Knights Templar were persecuted after, uh, a king of the mulo of money. And, uh, so I I'm just curious, you know, how much of it is just being a, a minority in, you know, a different culture, especially one that's that's more successful than the, you know, the majority culture.
Speaker 2 00:41:14 Yes. Well, I think that, yeah, go ahead, David.
Speaker 1 00:41:17 Um, I, I didn't, uh, know that about the Knights Templar. I know roughly who they are, but there are, I don't think there are any Knights Templar around today. There are many Jews around today, <laugh>. And so it's, um, it's, it's a matter of historical continuity and, um, you know, best numbers over history. And then today, so, you know, I will go, I will just repeat what I said, that human beings have a, some kind of proclivity toward tribalism and, um, that can be motivated by lots of things, including, you know, financial grievances about not getting paid. But, um, you know, we, and there's a long, long, sorry, history of all kinds of such tribal, uh, in-group preference out, out your hostility and, um, to the point of, you know, horrors that have happened. But, um, I ju I just wanna say that, um, whatever, whatever basis there is of that proclivity, um, including, you know, maybe genetic, we're descended from, from grade apes who are very tribal too. But we have reason and free will, and we can choose not to indulge any such proclivity. And one of the things that, um, I, I wouldn't emphasize an objectiveness as an objective is part of what we're seeing, um, is a decline in rationality and, uh, culturally speaking. And, you know, the, the post-modernism is an explicit denial of object, of rationality and objectivity. So I'm not surprised that, um, crap is happening, but I'm, I'm going way beyond your question, Scott. Um, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:43:17 You, I might, I might add that the en uh, envy and resentment of achievement, which object objectivism, is, there's a lot of stuff on that. It's interesting from this perspective, because if the, if the hatred of the Jews is on the grounds that they're undeserving of their success, then envy and resentment really don't quite apply. It's just, you know, might be seen as the justice of hating injustice, but envy being, hatred of the good for being the good. To the extent that Jews are recognized as having succeeded because they're good, because they have virtue Jews, because they actually have talents is, uh, of course this was more modern hatred, but also extending to any kind of success under capitalism. The hatred of inequality, the hatred of the top 1%, that kind of thing. And then the, the fact that the Jews might be a disproportionate representation in the 1% earns them, you know, special hatred.
Speaker 2 00:44:17 But that last point, you know, the, the shift in recent years to the concept of equity, not equality before the law, not even equality of opportunity and, and not even equality of result in the egalitarian sense, but equity now is being pushed as the idea that any group, back to David's point about tribalism groups must be proportionally represented in every field. Uh, you know, so if half the population is women, then half the airline pilots must be women. You know, if half the country, if only, you know, 8% of the country is black, then only 8% of the N B A should be black players. Of course, nobody says, nobody says that actually. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:44:57 Um, you know, so that, but that's what equity is. It's kind of like egalitarianism on steroids. But now think of this, there is no other group I can think of in history and even today, which is so disproportionately represented in these, in these great fields, uh, from finance to retail, to Hollywood, to whatever, uh, than the Jews. Cuz they're a small fraction of the population and a huge fraction of many of these. And so they violate the equity principle more than any other group. They are really disproportionately represented and in fields that are disproportionately hated. So I just wanna make that point.
Speaker 4 00:45:40 That's a good point. Uh, Clark, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4 00:45:46 Yes. Well, this is, uh, a very interesting conversation, of course. But I'd like to ask, uh, we'll, both, uh, David and Richard, uh, you know, right around the 1960s and seventies when America was becoming a lot more tolerant and sensitive to, to outgroups, uh, we, we kind of abandoned the melting pot and, you know, assimilation, uh, you know, kind of, we abandoned or moved away from uni culturalism, or, or maybe more specifically, you know, we went from Ebus unum to E pluribus ple. And so, you know, as a, as a little boy, I can remember, you know, I, I had friends who I didn't know for years were Jewish. Now I grew up in the south and West Houston, and honestly, they're real, really weren't at, at that time, you know, sixties, early seventies, late sixties. There, there really weren't that many Jews. And so, but, but you know, overall, just the trend in America was, you know, fit in because there was still kind of that belief in the melting pot.
Speaker 4 00:46:48 And yet today, I al I often scratched my head today and think, well, if we had just stayed with, you know, melting pot, colorblind, uh, assimilation, uh, and, and just instead of this multiculturalism, you know, uh, rude city ideolog, it seems as if, you know, a lot of these, I guess, problems, you know, would, would may maybe not be as, as manifest today. Uh, I know a lot of, I don't know, even the white nationalists, you get the impression, you know, they're told, you know, it's, it's, it's your roots, you know, it's in your blood, this, that, and the other. And, and like I said, you know, there are even people, of course, uh, Bernie Sanders, you know, back in the day, he ch ch he changed his name. And I think today he's, he's highly respected. And of course, we now know that, uh, until like the mid 1960s, uh, or a after the 1960s, I think half of Jews today, Mary non-Jews, they're, they're very ex agamous. And so, so I guess how much of the problem is, is this abandonment of, of, you know, the melting pot for this, I think, what do they call it? Tos, salad, whatever it's called now.
Speaker 1 00:47:55 Um, I, I'd like to jump in here because, uh, I grew up in the same era in the sixties, and I grew up in a place called Shaker Heights. It's a suburb believe in. And, um, although it was founded in the early 19th century as a municipality, as somewhere, uh, my developer, uh, who had some restrictions on property sales. And part of the goal was to, uh, exclude undesirables, which at that time included Jews as well as blacks. But Czech Heights became, uh, kind haven. Many, uh, you know, successful people in, in Cleveland bought houses. It was about 40% of, of the families when I was growing up in the sixties were, were Jewish. I had, you know, I, and it was exactly like that melting pot. I didn't, you know, I, I didn't even know, and in many cases, whether people were yours or not, if I did, it didn't matter.
Speaker 1 00:48:53 You know, they could be, um, Episcopalians or Catholics for all I cared, you know, that's their personal thing. But I, and it was a melting pot. But here's, here's the point. I wanna make the early civil rights movement, which was mainly focused on blacks, but it involved a wider concept of the, of the melting pot, as you say, um, was short-lived because it quickly turned into, in the case of, uh, racial things in into affirmative action, which is a collectivist, inherently collectivist thing. And that all happened in a short period during the sixties. And, uh, I think my view, um, having listed this, uh, you know, that period and the time since is that, um, melting pot was just abandoned. And today, you know, it's gone, uh, the, the, the concept and the preference of on in, in theory and in, um, ideology, although, you know, in America, as Richard was saying about the degrees of antisemitism worldwide, you know, there are, the fact is many, many people in society, in Wall Street, in law, in Hollywood, uh, and, and every walk of life are Jewish. And, you know, they're among the many people, uh, other people from other ethnicities who are fine. So there's a great deal of assimilation still going on in practice, but the theory has gotten, uh, really distorted.
Speaker 2 00:50:35 I, I just wanted to add, I just wanted to add that if you thought of Vine Rand's pyramid of ability, and then the, you know, the top being the major contributors disproportionately to those below, if you take that top tip of the pyramid and then say, okay, there's a tip within the tip, and they're Jews, uh, the same principles would apply the same point she makes about the distrust of those at the top, having taken from those at the bottom, exploiting within the top, as I said before, they're disproportionately represented. So it's a kind of an intensification of the principle for goodery. From the good side, it would be, wow, look at this major, uh, contribution. On the bad side, it would be, wow, look at this major exploitation by this particular, um, group. By the way, that the question, the, the idea of the Jewish question, I mentioned earlier, the early, early 18 hundreds in Germany, there's a fascinating book about Hollywood from 2001 by, I think a guy named Carr, c a r r cleverly titled The Hollywood Question.
Speaker 2 00:51:42 And it's a <laugh>, it's a, it's a history of how Hollywood was largely founded by Jewish moguls. And we know of, uh, Louis v Mayor and Sam Goldman and the Warner Brothers, and Lowe Lasky all, um, and, and things like gentleman's agreement, which I think was in the 1950s. Um, I forget the actor Gregory Peck, they made a bunch of great movie. They made a bunch of great movies, you know, uh, against antisemitism. But what's interesting about that book, he says, is they, Hollywood was reluctant to do, uh, criticisms of antisemitism in movies until Pearl Harbor. And then as we know, there's a rash of movies after 1941 in the forties, generally Capra and others, uh, anti, uh, Nazi, way more than anti Stalin. Right. And we can talk about that, like why some Jews have been pro socialist or not. David and I have some views on that, but it's an interest. So the Hollywood connection is very interesting as well, because I think Hollywood not only founded largely and promoted by Jews, but um, uh, but also contributing to this toleration toward Jews in America, at least here.
Speaker 0 00:53:02 Yeah. There is actually a great movie from I think the early thirties on the Rothchilds that, uh, paints them in a very sympathetic light and using carrier pigeon during the Napoleonic time to communicate. Um, JAG.
Speaker 5 00:53:18 Yeah. Uh, just along the lines of what Richard was saying about Hollywood, uh, I remember my interview with Ashley RINs talking on his book, the Gray Lady Winked. And, uh, he was talking about the, the owners, uh, the Salzberg and how they were that in part because of the, um, really virulent anti-Semitism of the time. And, you know, I, I guess I just also say as a side note at the Atlas side, of course, we like to say, or I like to say that to be objective, you have to have perspective. And so, while we prefaced this discussion with, um, the statistics about increased incidents of, of anti-Semitism in the past couple of years, I think it's also worthwhile to keep in mind how far we've come, you know? Yeah. In the past hundred years, particularly in the United States. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but when you look back to the, the twenties and thirties, uh, rind drew the connection to say that that real, uh, reluctance to, to call out anti-Semitism led to an under-reporting of the atrocities of the Holocaust in the pages of the New York Times.
Speaker 2 00:54:42 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:54:42 <affirmative>. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:54:43 Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a, there's a, isn't there a long history of the concept of the self-loathing Jew and guilt Mueller has this, in his book, he says, Mueller basically says the Jews should be proud of their achievements. But the very same thing that, the very same philosophy that makes people that we know feel guilty about their success, cuz they don't quite know the source of it or altruism undermines them under also undermines Jews. So that's not anything unique to Jews. They too would fall for this, so to speak. And Friedman's essay, I talk, I said, Milton Friedman's essay, his par, he presents as a paradox. How can Jews have succeeded so well in capitalism, but not be univer, you know, uniformly pro capitalist? Well, we can say that today of CEOs, you know, it's, it's the Marxist myth that you must have ideas that reflect your economic financial status in society. And that's, that's materialist, that's economic materialism. That's not what drives ideas.
Speaker 1 00:55:44 Well, it's also though, uh, I just wanna jump in here. Um, the, what we now call woke, uh, identity politics is a derivative of marks because Hmm. Yeah. You know, he set up the original idea that class structure is primary. Yeah. For him it was economic class structure. Uh, but that's, it's easy to expend that to sexual, ethnic, religious, and other, um, class structures. But it's, it's mark's I think was the basis of, uh, you know, the, one of the fountain heads anyway, if not the sole one, but the most in powerful one who, uh, is behind what we're seeing today on the left. And since you mentioned the Jewish question, I wanna read something for those who haven't read that work of marks, and this is a quote from a, this is a translation of the German, of course, but here's what Mark said on the Jew in his essay on the Jewish question, what is the worldly religion of the Jew Huckstering?
Speaker 1 00:56:57 What is his worldly God money? Money? Is it jealous God of Israel and the face of which no other God may exist, money degrades all the gods of man and turns him into commodities. The Bill of Exchange is the real God of the Jew. His God is only an elusory bill of exchange. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is a nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general. I mean, you can analyze that. Um, there are a few people who said, well, marks was just speaking ironically, but, um, I think must follows say, you know, he meant what he said. And there's a long history in, within the socialism movement in the late 19th century of a link between, um, anti-capitalism on the part of socialist and anti, um, anti-Semitism. I mean, the, it's Richard, uh, you know, you, you've read a lot about this probably more than I have, but, um, it's, it's just part of the tradition. Um, uh, and you know, with the, with hindsight, we can look back and say, well, guess what? The Nazis were socialists in the end. Um, and they picked up a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 2 00:58:25 Yeah. The, and the oddity of this will make a strange kind of logical sense. The, the, the literature shows that to the extent Jewish intellectuals were pro socialists, it was along the lines of something like, well, Marx argues for the abolition of classes, and if we abolish all classes, then we won't be hated as a class <laugh>. But then yeah, but then the baby talk about baby with the bathwater comes that with, well, he gets rid of money, he gets rid of profit, he gets rid of exchange. He, he thinks finance is para, so there's not gonna be much finance. Okay. So, okay. So we've gotten rid of anti-Semitism by basically getting rid of these uniquely capitalist features that Jews are good at, you know, thanks a lot, uh, <laugh>, it's just so, yeah, right. It's just so naive. Absolutely. It's so stupid and naive. But, but you know, from, you know, and of course it's a, a lie that it was gonna be a classless society, but to the extent you believed that, you could see why a Jew might say, oh, good, finally, if I'm not classed separately, um, there's another section of the same essay, David, by the way, I cannot resist from, from Marks on the Jewish question.
Speaker 2 00:59:42 Further down, the Jew, uh, Judaism continues to exist in spite of history, but owing to history, the Jew is perpetually created by civil society from its own end trails. What in itself was the basis of the Jewish religion practical need egoism, the mon, the monotheism of the Jim, still quoting here, the monotheism of the Jew, therefore, Israel reality, the polytheism of the many needs a polytheism, which makes even the laboratory an object of divine law, practical need. Egoism is the principle of civil society. And as such, appears in pure form. As soon as civil society has fully given birth to the political state, the God of practical need and self-interest is money. And then he goes on to say, in the Jew, and that's what the Jews do. And then further down of best, you know, only under, further down, only under the dominance of Christianity, which makes all nations, all national, natural, moral and theoretical conditions, extrinsic command could civil society separate itself, completely sever all the species ties of man and put egoism and selfish need in its place. So a really deeply philosophical egoism and capitalism go together, egoism and practical, and the egoism and civilization go together. Yeah. And he hates it. He hates it all. And, and the Jews most represent that, and he hates that. It's really quite telling.
Speaker 0 01:01:15 Great. Um, well, I want to get to John. John, thank you for your patience.
Speaker 6 01:01:21 Uh, thank you, Scott. I just wanted to comment that a common denominator between antisemitism and anti-capitalism is the emotion of envy. And envy, of course, is sub rational. And that's how it relates to objectivism and David's comments. And so, and, and, and it, it goes to the, uh, the genetics of, of humanity and human nature. Now leave it at that. Yeah. I think envy is a critical common denominator. Uh,
Speaker 1 01:01:59 John, could you say the last, the last sentence again?
Speaker 6 01:02:02 Oh, envy. The, the emotion or the impulse of envy is a common denominator between antisemitism and anti-capitalism. And envy of course, is not rational. It is some, is a sub rational, almost a just a yes animalistic. And so, uh, that, that's, uh, and, and then the other thing about it is that I think the philosophies of liberty at their core are actually about property and self ownership and trade. And, uh, you know, uh, so that exchange, and that's, uh, also a common denominator here between the two, that is that capitalism and, um, uh, anti-Semitism, they're, or anti-capitalism and anti-Semitism are both critical of, uh, those who are successful traders. People who, uh, are good at, at handling property and of, uh, leveraging property and such. Uh, I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1 01:03:17 Okay. Yeah. Uh, Richard at this, I think more in your line, but, um, I'll just say envy, you know, in the sense the objectives, understanding of it, the hatred of the good for being good, um, is a recurrent human emotion. And it's not, it's something I think only human beings can feel, uh, as an emotion, because you need a conceptual capacity to identify what's good and then hate it. Um, and human beings, though, you know, from private impulses, uh, have, have that motivation. Um, anyone who stands out, and particularly anyone who stands out as an individual threatens the tribe and the tribal agreement.
Speaker 6 01:04:07 David, if, if you could substitute, if you could substitute the word property for the word good, I would more greatly endorse Rand. What's an issue is property. That's what envy is about, is about property.
Speaker 1 01:04:26 You know, I might, John, I think that's too limited. Uh, you know, you know, someone can, uh, a guy can envy another guy for his good looks and, uh, or a woman for another woman's good looks, uh, or you know, her really handsome husband
Speaker 6 01:04:44 In the context of anti-capitalism and anti-Semitism. It's about envy of property.
Speaker 1 01:04:53 All right. Uh, I'm gonna let Richard, uh, take over here, cuz it, this is more economic.
Speaker 2 01:04:59 Well, I would just add that I, I had said earlier that if envy was the issue than it's hatred of the good, it's a recognition and there's hatred and envy toward Jews. The logic would be there's a recognition that the Jews are actually achieving something, which is quite different from the idea that they're swindlers and parasites and dirty and all that. Right now, I don't know which is easier to refute the idea that they contribute nothing or that they're blood suckers or that no, they contribute great things and we hate them for that. I think actually the second would be easier because there's a recognition of, of the value, but we're just splitting hairs here. But, so, no, I do think Envy's involved, but it's this idea of where that, where are they in the pyramid of ability? They're high up in the pyramid of ability, so they're gonna be denounced in an egalitarian socialist leveling setting.
Speaker 2 01:05:48 Uh, I might add also that I think in contemporary times, this may seem complete far, far afield, but the kind of anti-establishment, anti swamp conspiracy theory of when we know there's conspiracy theories about the Jews, you know, pulling the strings behind the scenes. But it, it's bound up and especially on the right today with the idea that the establishment, meaning the, the credentialed, the experienced, the ones running things in the universities in Hollywood, in the schools in Washington at the Pentagon are Jew, are, are responsible for our ills. Then the Jews are largely responsible for our ills. Why? Because they occupy many, many of those positions. So the whole pop call it the populist suspicion of, uh, the ruling class. Um, the Jews are gonna get caught up in that as well. Um, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 01:06:49 And I, and I would add also that Dave, I don't know if David mentioned this, that, but he and I talked offline about this earlier this week. There, there's an interesting heritage where the Jews are prideful and rightly so, right? Not only in their achievements, but like now, if it were based on the idea that, well, we have the lineage and we have the back to Moses and stuff that's not rational, but but still seen by the general public as this group is not only a minority, it's a successful minority, they're very proud of themselves. They might be seen as arrogant and super sillus. It's hard to become a Jew. You know, do Jews convert to other things? But to go the other way is <laugh> very difficult. You really have to earn it. And people, a lot of people hate that. I mean, it's okay to have gay pride, right? But Jew pride unacceptable. But, uh, so I think that's in there as well. The idea of who are you to think of yourselves as the chosen ones and the, the cream of the crop, so to speak.
Speaker 0 01:07:55 Yeah, I think that definitely exists. Um, I just wanna switch gears. Someone that's, uh, secular Jew myself, I was very concerned when, um, you know, Ilhan Omar questioned the loyalty of American Jews who support Israel, isn't it on a different level when it's someone in government?
Speaker 1 01:08:15 Hmm.
Speaker 2 01:08:18 David, you wanna take that or take the whole issue of US relations with Israel is interesting.
Speaker 2 01:08:27 Um, I think David's muted. Let, let me, uh, in lieu of David saying something, uh, I, I think the US relations with Israel, first of all, Zionism itself, the idea that the Jews should have a particular state. There's a lot of hatred for that. Um, it's of course, and, and sometimes it's seen as well the hatred is of what amounts to theocracy that no government should be dominated by a particular religion. But that is not actually Israel. I mean, Netanyahu, others and others, obviously the origin in 1948 establishing the state, the state of Israel, the idea it's a Jewish state, but there's, it's so liberal in the sense of allowing non-Jews all sorts of positions in, in the Knesset elsewhere. That it's nothing like Tehran. It's nothing like the theocracy we see in Islam. But, um, that is a pot, you know, that is a potential source of opposition, you know, that the US should not be, uh, supporting Israel. But I think it has much more to do with the idea of Israel being a kind of oasis of civilization and even if semi capitalism in that region and hated for that reason, not because there's a religious state, uh, nexus, but I dunno if David has a different view.
Speaker 1 01:09:42 Yeah, I just, I I wanna say, um, what's her name? Ilan Omar or something. Um, you know, that sounds, that reminds me of things that were said during, um, in the 1960 election about Kennedy, John F. Kennedy. He's a Catholic, so is he gonna bow to the Vatican? And his presence is Yeah. <laugh>, he's an American politician. Yeah. So our, our presidents, um, our relationship with Israel is a foreign policy issue. And, you know, some Jews naturally, uh, want us to, uh, maintain a positive relationship. But I, I do wanna go back to one of the stats that I mentioned earlier. Um, there w there are surveys of, um, that are, uh, of attitudes toward Israel and Palestine and the, um, people of the boomer generation, you know, like myself and I guess Richard, you would count there. <laugh> as well, uh, overwhelmingly are supporters of Israel and, you know, but yeah, millennials, um, are, uh, uh, the ma majority, uh, on that score, um, tend to sympathize with Palestinian. Palestinian rather than Palestinians, rather than Jews. Yeah. So there is a generation shift coming, and that's, uh, one of the, the, uh, articles, um, that I've come across, and maybe it's one that you sent me, Richard. Um, and so there is, uh,
Speaker 1 01:11:38 You know, I think this, uh, representative, uh, who's known as a very far left progressive, one of the, uh, progressive squad members that we speak in the, in the house is, um, it's just voicing an old canard that if you have a non-standard religious affiliation, um, I e not Christian or not secular, then it's gonna bias your judgment about foreign policy. Well, you know, it's, there may be, uh, you know, Jews may well, uh, disproportionately, you know, compared to other groups support Israel, there are great reasons for that. <laugh>, um, given the Holocaust, and, you know, there's still Holocaust survivors and people with Holocaust, uh, whose parents died there. Um, Israel was armed in 1948, as in part a haven, a place for Jews not to be victimized. Yeah. And, um, right. They've come a long way since then. Right. But when you think compared them with, uh, just from a pure foreign policy standpoint, and the idea that America should be in its foreign policies should be allied with people who share its fundamental values. Well, Israel's a natural ally. Yeah,
Speaker 2 01:13:15 Exactly. And yeah, I
Speaker 1 01:13:18 Think, I think that lady is out of, out of wack.
Speaker 2 01:13:21 And, and David, you were right earlier also this, this sequencing from in the beginning, post-Holocaust, uh, victims clearly, clearly victims, but therefore gaining the sympathy of Altru spec. Specifically, they're suffering, they're refugees, they have no home. They're weak, they're decimated. Okay. But then, and then the beginning actually socialists. So the early decades of Israel was a more socialist political setup. Right. But then as it became less socialist, more prosperous, more militarily, powerful <laugh> and become more hated, uh, it's almost like, Hey, Jew, stay in your place, uh, wandering all over the world, persecuted. But now that you're not wandering anymore, now that you're got borders and security and you know, uh, success now we hate you. I i wasn't it a o c or somebody else? The squad generally is very anti-Semitic and to the point where Pelosi and others had to make a statement a few years back to Yes, right. <laugh>
Speaker 2 01:14:27 To, to not, not so much to denounce them, but to tell them to quiet down. But I think it was AOC who said, with these people, it's all about the Benjamins. Remember that? Oh, yeah. Oh God. Oh, it's all about, it's all about the money. And, uh, yeah, they're terrible. It, I mean, but here's another interesting weird aspect though. You know, you often hear the hyphen, the Judeo-Christian ethic, and yet the long history, you know, until the Enlightenment was the Christians were the worst, uh, persecutors of the Jews for various reasons we don't have to get into. But the Enlightenment Levin, that and the Christian, unlike the Muslims that Christians went through the Enlightenment, and of course the Jews did as well. But, so I think the alliance, if you will, to the extent it exists at all in modern times between the Judeo-Christian groups, is thank thankful, thanks to the enlightenment, thank the residue of could we please appeal to reason both sides.
Speaker 2 01:15:24 But, but there still also is this residue of old and New Testament. And the more I study it, I'm no biblical scholar. But the more I study it, the more I think it's so amazing. Cuz you know, something like in the issue of justice objectiveness are for the virtue of justice, right? The Old Testament is it has that in it eye for an eye tooth for a tooth, right? Whereas the New Testament is, uh, turn the other chief, forgive. Yeah. Uh, forgive not, not only that, uh, embrace your enemies. And that is not how Israel conducts it. Foreign policies, obviously, right? So, so it's got Old Testament foreign policy, namely, if the Iranians attack us, we're gonna decimate them. And we're not gonna hesitate. We're not gonna, we're not gonna hemon haw like that Christian George Bush did after nine 11. Uh, you know, we're gonna be resolute about it and we're gonna preempt them.
Speaker 2 01:16:14 Um, so I, I think things like that are interesting to the old, again, the Old Testament, it's not, it's not, not so much objectives, but it's just, it's closer to our virtues. It's also kind of, there's a lot of, it's a lot of violence in there. But, but you know what I mean, there, the, the Old Testament Deuteronomy and the first five books of Moses, the are much more, uh, this earthly, uh, focus is okay, you know, if, if not perfectly moral, it's okay. And making money and, and improving your life is okay. And I, for an I and treat people just, and the other one is, you know, throw away your goods and it shall be evil if, uh, impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And love of money is the root of all evil. And, uh, turn the other cheek. And so one is justice, and the other one is mercy. Uh, so they do a lie today. But I think there's still residues of this difference that is important to the case for capitalism and its relation, and both religions relationship to objectivism and, and frankly, the Atlas Society's mission. To the extent we're open to trying to convince others to be more objective, that knowledge of these differences is important.
Speaker 2 01:17:22 You know, instead of, instead of just grouping all religions together, I mean, I think of the three great important religions, but I have to admit that the Jewish religion is closer to our set of values than the other two are. But a lot of it has to do with how enlightened they are or not. And Islam is the least enlightened, I I think Zion ran, who said, religion is a primitive form of philosophy, but at least it's some kind of philosophy, right? Versus neoism or subjectivism. But then within that, you could say Islam is the most primitive of the religions and Judaism the least primitive, I would say.
Speaker 1 01:18:01 I would just add, um, go ahead. Uh, a reference here. Uh, the late George Walsh, uh, who helped me found the organization in the first place, the Outlet Society, um, was a scholar of religion, and we still carry a book of his called, uh, um, the Role of Religion and History. And he is an expert on this. So this has a ton of background on Judaism, Christianity, Islam for that matter, and other religions. And he, he's truly an expert. So that's, um, if, if you wanna learn more about, um, the origins of the religions and some of the key philosophical differences, um, regarding the Law de Torah, et cetera, um, it's a, it's a great resource. So anyway, back to you, Scott. Uh, we
Speaker 0 01:18:58 Great. Uh, I do wanna invite people up if you have questions. Uh, right now we'll go to Connie. Thanks for joining.
Speaker 8 01:19:08 Well, thanks as always, Scott. And, and briefly before I, I have my question. I wanted to send a thank you to, to Jag for that wonderful interview with Eric July yesterday. I think it was one of the best interviews I've seen with him. Um, the format was perfect, and he was able to explain things and, uh, I, I think it was one of the best I've seen. So wanted to thank you for that.
Speaker 5 01:19:37 Thanks, sweetheart.
Speaker 5 01:19:41 Speaking of, uh, TASA interviews, I would also like to just give a plug to the interview that I did last week, because it's on, it's tangential or overlapping with what we're discussing today. And that was my interview with, uh, Michael Barum. He is the creative forest behind the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and curating the, the new, uh, traveling exhibit on Auschwitz, which is coming to the Reagan library. Um, and I, I thought he had some really interesting insights. He's been one of the leading, um, probably the leading consultant on a lot of the Hollywood, uh, treatments about, uh, the Holocaust and about the camps. Um, and he talked about his concern on, it wasn't really specifically antisemitism, but he was talking about the, uh, almost the trivial trivialization or the vulgarization of the Holocaust when it's used, uh, to try to score political points, you know? So, um, he said whether it was on, uh, the left claiming that, um, Republicans or Nazis, Trump is Hitler, uh, or on the right equating, um, masks with armbands. So I thought that was a, that was a good, a good point. If anybody's interested, they could check it out, uh, on our site.
Speaker 8 01:21:15 I definitely am. So you say I can find it on the site, or is there a link to the, the Zoom to re-listen or,
Speaker 5 01:21:22 Yeah, it's on, on our YouTube channel or Facebook channel. And I'll, I'll send it to you, um, specifically.
Speaker 8 01:21:29 Well, I'll, I'll pass it on to my fellow board member too with, uh, you are the power, um, spike Cohen, otherwise known as the Bazooka Jew. I'm sure he'll enjoy it just as much Jeff <laugh>.
Speaker 0 01:21:44 Great. Um, well, uh, you know, Rand did talk about one of the things that, uh, she felt Jewish in the sense of the people that hate Jews hated her. And I, I can relate to that as well. I mean, as far as tribalism, I mean, can we make any generalizations about a a group of people? I mean, even some Jewish people do that internally.
Speaker 8 01:22:11 I don't know, Scott. I think maybe we all do. I know I've personally never had an accountant that wasn't a Jewish person, so, and that probably sounds perfectly horrible, and I'll throw myself back to the audience <laugh>, but there are just certain demographics or something that, uh, that maybe you look at, and maybe it's unfair. Maybe it's my age, I don't know. But I don't know. I never, well, an accountant that wasn't Jewish, um, I'll land with it.
Speaker 1 01:22:42 Yeah, Scott, I just, at, at a more theoretical level, logical level stereotypes are, uh, part of how we navigate the world, and they have usefulness in that. As long as you remember that a stereotype about a group like Jews or blacks or was, or, you know, whatever Italians is, um, just a kind of a summary emphasis on certain traits that are often more pronounced. And it's, it's perfectly fine if you just take account of that, but realize that at the end of the day, groups are made of individuals and individuals differ on everything important. So, um, yeah, in the, in the case at hand, many Jews are, um, you know, more conversant with money and trade than their Christian counterparts. That was certainly true in my experience growing up in, in Shaker Heights. The Jewish kids knew way more than I did. I kind of emptied them, or I not empty, I can't use that word, but I wish that I had, uh, my family had given me the same amount of training about business in finance, um, that some of my, uh, colleagues had. Some of my
Speaker 2 01:24:13 Schoolmates had. I had the same experience. I had the same experience. David, and I wonder if we haven't mentioned this, but I wonder if also that some of the funniest people I ever met are, and, and they, there in comedy in, you know, from Seinfeld onward, that there's a long history of a very funny, now whether it's gallows
Speaker 1 01:24:32 Oh,
Speaker 2 01:24:32 That's right. Yeah. Whether it's gallow's humor or whatever, <laugh>, you know, the whole, the whole history of the people up in the Catskills, you know, trying out there. Mort Saul was one of Leonard's
Speaker 1 01:24:41 Favorite <laugh>, Mor
Speaker 2 01:24:42 Mor Mort Saul was one of Leonard's favorite, uh, comedians, but there's a long history there too. But part of the entertainment business, I suppose, but this mentioned earlier of accountants, I mean, if you look at the list that they're really call professions, right? Precisely because they're more intellectual bankers, lawyers, accountants, retailers, jewelers, doctors. I mean, that's just off the top of my head dominated, you know, I don't mean dominated in the sense of more than, but proportionate to the population and their, that comes from the learned professions, long, long periods of study right along, uh, intellectuality and, um, and success. Those are the cream of the CRO in terms of income, in terms of status and things like that. Um, interestingly, not in America, at least politicians, you know, the politicians in America, the, the Irish, the Italian, yeah.
Speaker 1 01:25:37 <laugh>
Speaker 2 01:25:38 For some, you know, the gift of gab, the, the ones who are, uh, you know, able to talk to the public, uh, not a lot of Jewish politicians, but, you know, policy wonks, so to speak. Yeah. Cuz it's more intellectual. By the way, I wanted to mention one of the reasons in 1913 that Sobar wrote the Jews in modern capitalism is he was reacting to a very famous book called The Protestant Ethic and Capitalism by Max Var. And Weber's theory was that the Protestant, this is a obviously a counter that the Protestants were, uh, had the features and the attitudes and, and the sub that that made capitalism possible. But his main insight, VAs was that they were aesthetic, aesthetic meaning not hedonistic, the opposite of hedonistic, not so, in other words, willing to be long term to sacrifice their near term interest to not buy a bunch of goods to save money. Okay, well, there's a certain truth to this, right? Savings as a source of investment, as a source of capital accumulation and wealth. And, uh, VAR didn't like that. I mean, excuse me. Uh, Sobar didn't like that he, he was trying to counter the var view that capitalism was driven by Protestant views, and his view was, no, it's driven by Judeo views and, and, and norms. So just as a, just as a contrast there,
Speaker 0 01:27:08 Thank you. Um, you know, with, uh, just going back to Kanye, you know, in, in the early days when he was saying the death count stuff, one of his excuses was, he was saying, I'm Jewish too, and I think he was referring to like the black Hebrew Israelites. But we see some of that with this attitude of, you know, historically marginalized groups can't be racist or bigoted. I mean, is that part of what's going on with today's version?
Speaker 1 01:27:37 Oh, yeah. Under the, uh, under the regime of identity politics, uh, informed by the power analysis that they inherited from, uh, post-modernism, those on the short end of the state, those who are considered victim groups can do no wrong. And they, they have the privilege that whatever they say must be taken this truth. Um, you know, it's not subject to rationality or, um, <inaudible> judgment and what the people on the top end, the powerful groups, so to speak, um, so it can be dismissed because they're, they are unaware of their, um, uh, white supremacist assumptions or their Christian assumptions or whatever. Um, Jews have joined that now. So they're on the, among the, uh, oppressor groups because they're, they're so successful. It goes back to that altruism. Um, and I, I'll again bless are the poor for they shall inherit the earth. Why do, why did the poor get to inherit the earth? Well, living aside historical, contextual things, uh, that there was a great deal of oppression, um, back in the, at the time that the New Testament was written. Um, nevertheless, though, the, um, yeah. Does anyone think that's true? <laugh>, they're not gonna inherit the earth. Right? You know, they're,
Speaker 2 01:29:26 And the lash shall be first and the first shall be last as well, David, right?
Speaker 1 01:29:30 The exactly right. The, what I call the, the aversion of values. And Iran wrote about this eloquently in right atlas shrug, andal speech,
Speaker 2 01:29:40 And secular sec secularized in March, the pros will take over, the pros will eventually win, and the capitalists will be dictated too.
Speaker 1 01:29:50 Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 01:29:51 So not in an, not in an afterlife, but after socialism comes in. Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:29:55 Similar, yeah. That they're, they've imminent the eson as William Buckley used to say, <laugh>, they've brought, they brought the, uh, yeah, all the corrections that Christians thought would be doing heaven, they brought it back into this world. <laugh>. Yeah, yeah. In the communist, uh, ideal <laugh>. Anyway, um, Scott, thank you for putting this on. Uh, I know we're at the end of our time, so I'll let you have the last word on this.
Speaker 0 01:30:22 Yeah, thank you. Thank you both for, uh, handling this subject, uh, the way you did. Um, I just wanna say that, uh, David and Richard, you'll both be doing a Scholars Asking Scholars event, Wednesday the 18th at 5:00 PM Eastern. Then, uh, Thursday the 19th at 6:00 PM Eastern. Richard will be back here on Clubhouse with an Ask Me Anything, which, uh, they're usually pretty lively, so stay tuned for that. Uh, we appreciate everyone joining us and we'll look forward to seeing you at the next event.
Speaker 2 01:30:55 Thank you, Scott. Thank you all. Thanks. You,
Speaker 1 01:30:57 Thanks to everyone. Thanks
Speaker 2 01:30:58 Jag.
