Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Uh, thank you all for joining us today. I'm Scott Schiff with the Atlas Society, with our founder David Kelly and senior Scholar Richard Salzman, uh, on how narcissism isn't Egoism. And while they're offering their thoughts, uh, feel free to raise your hands with questions. We'll bring you up to the stage, uh, to ask. Once they're done with their opening statements, we encourage you to share the room. Um, thank you both for, uh, doing this topic. Uh, David, I think we're gonna start with you. Uh, help us with the distinction between, uh, narcissism and egoism.
Speaker 1 00:00:44 Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Scott. Thank you everyone. Thanks to Richard.
Speaker 0 00:00:48 And, uh, your volume is, we're still having issues with your volume.
Speaker 1 00:00:54 Oh, dear.
Speaker 0 00:00:57 I tell you what, uh, Richard, would you be okay starting while we, uh, while David, uh, fixes his audio issues?
Speaker 2 00:01:07 Sure. Scott, thanks. Can you hear me?
Speaker 0 00:01:09 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:01:11 And when David, let me
Speaker 1 00:01:12 Just check. Can I hear you?
Speaker 0 00:01:14 Yeah, we still can hardly hear you, David. I think you're probably gonna have to leave, take out any kind of, uh, headphones or microphones and just, uh, come back.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 Okay. Um, let me try this first.
Speaker 2 00:01:31 Okay. Uh, Scott, when David comes back, if I don't hear him and others do just, uh, stop me midstream, I'll take up. David and I have been studying this, uh, for a long time. That topic, uh, I think, uh, we think is, uh, well topical and, uh, here's what we intended to do tonight. One, uh, narcissism just issue. Uh, is it a, is it changed over time? We've, we've delved into many, many, both academic and popular accounts of this. And, uh, there's a lot of material on this. It's all very interesting. My, our overall goal has been to, uh, distinguish narcissism from egoism and an objectivism being an egoistic, having an egoistic ethic and speak, and, and, and irrational egoism as the, the key ethic, which itself is a minority view. Uh, we want to distinguish it from, uh, narcissism in various ways. So, so the structure really we had today, after all our reading and studying and back and forth behind the scenes, was first a narcissism, uh, to the extent a current cultural issue.
Speaker 2 00:02:40 Then what is it, what is narcissism? And then start to distinguish it. What is egoism and why, uh, narcissism is not that. And then I think we're gonna make a very important point about why narcissism is not simply too much self-esteem or too much egoism, meaning we're gonna stress that it's not a quantitative, uh, issue. It's a qualitative issue. This is a difference, not a degree, but of kind of type. And if our ethic is right and rational ego is the right way to go, we need to be very careful about not letting it be contaminated by conceptions, which amount to pseudo self-esteem or pseudo egoism, which we think narcissism is. Um, now the other thing, uh, there are certain, you know, other auxiliary points worth making that will, that will make as well. Uh, one of them is that, um, on a certain level, and the, and the research bears this out, narcissism could be seen, um, somewhat innocuously at, in an innocuous manner as simply arrested development.
Speaker 2 00:03:50 Most of the research on this, especially those who very carefully and interestingly try to distinguish between narcissism and self-esteem, indicate that early on, uh, and this is child development stuff, the child tends to be narcissistic because their universe is very circumscribed. Their universe is basically their parents or their family. And so, so they're very centered on their own universe and, and aren't yet capable, uh, to see beyond themselves, so to speak. But most of the studies have shown that over time, uh, and then very quickly after childhood, narcissism declines in self-esteem rises. Uh, and so there's an inverse relationship between the two. And by self-esteem, they do mean a genuine internal, not external, internally generated sense of, well, two things in the objectivist literature, self-efficacy and self-worth. So, uh, I'll stop here for a minute. David, can you hear or speak? I don't want to keep going if you're able to speak.
Speaker 1 00:04:53 Yeah, I can hear, uh, can you hear me
Speaker 2 00:04:57 Faintly? It's still faint. Faint, yeah, still faint. I'm
Speaker 1 00:05:02 Sorry. I don't know what the problem is. Um,
Speaker 0 00:05:05 You were able to fix it last time, so
Speaker 1 00:05:09 Yeah, I'm gonna restart my phone. It's a new phone and, um, I haven't mastered all the limitations in gimmick, so, um, let me, let me come back, Richard. You're doing great, <laugh>. Um,
Speaker 2 00:05:22 And okay, dear,
Speaker 1 00:05:23 I'll be, uh, back shortly as shortly as
Speaker 0 00:05:27 Possible. Yeah, we'll see you back shortly.
Speaker 2 00:05:29 So this last point was that, uh, narcissism in effect is, um, the impoverished self, or call it arrested development, that for some reason in childhood and then going into adolescent and adulthood, the person does not transition very quickly into genuine self-esteem. And this could be due to parenting, it could be due to, uh, education in the public schools or whatever. But, um, the idea is, uh, narcissism to the extent defined as, um, very internally focused with no conception of the outside world as we'll see in the, uh, actual definitions, clinical and otherwise. In the literature, uh, there is a preoccupation actually with what others think of you. But if narcissism is conceived as many do as completely self-centered, completely oblivious to the outside world, uh, that's not quite the view of the child. Cuz they see the parents, but the parents are the soul universe, the soul outside world, so to speak.
Speaker 2 00:06:30 They very quickly transition into, well, others exist. And now I have to find my place in the world relative to others. Um, but, but this is the idea that it's possible that narcissism and there are various types of narcissism that, that, that one of them is simply a kind of, um, understandable, albeit pathetic, but still understandable attempt by someone rising into adulthood, not really fully self-esteem, trying to buttress and bolster their self-esteem as if they glimpse it is important, but they don't quite have it, and is there some way they can gain it externally? So it's still a mistake, it's still wrong, but it's, uh, at least from our perspective, still understandable cuz you'd rather that of course, than someone who, uh, wishes to be completely selfless, you know, a complete, uh, cipher. Um, alright, so that's our basic structure. And David and I were thinking of going for, uh, at most 40 minutes.
Speaker 2 00:07:30 Uh, we have a 90 minute session, uh, 40, 45 minutes, maybe less. And then leave it open to comments and questions. And, um, unless David wants to jump in, let me go back to the structure. Um, culturally, why is it a current issue? Um, I mean, if you just say things like social media, uh, people who have friends who aren't really friends, people who get likes on Twitter and other things, followers, eyeballs, you know, sheer eyeballs. It, it's the idea that I'm, I'm self-important because others are following me. And there's, and there's almost no distinction. Well, who are these others? David and I have talked at length about the idea that, uh, well, it's not completely irrational to want admiration from others, but these would be others that we prize. These would be others that the rational person esteems and respect. Say. We often hear the respect of peers, peers who know what they're doing, who know what they're talking about.
Speaker 2 00:08:30 And that is an objective basis that that isn't, uh, craving the esteem of just anyone promiscuously or sheer numbers, if sheer numbers would do it. No, it's the quality of those who judge, uh, us judge our work, judge our relationships. And, uh, so that's healthy. But that's not narcissism. We know that the narcissist is, is is one is almost promiscuous about the number. And, uh, types of people who quote, follow him or follow her social media would be one phenomenon. Reality TV would be another phenomenon. Real housewives of the, I don't know, fill in the blank would be another phenomenon. If Harry and Megan, oh my God, I can't even, there is so, uh, the Oprah, not Oprah's not active anymore, but those Oprah shows where people would come on and they would just spill their guts and, and as if anyone cared about their inner workings.
Speaker 2 00:09:21 And, and that the whole, that whole trend, uh, and I'm sure you can think of others, is, uh, narcissistic in the sense that these people are, are craving in a very kind of irrational, almost pathetic way, uh, the approval, the esteem of others. Uh, our our colleague at, um, the Atlas Society, Rob Kazinski, wrote an interesting piece recently about, um, the crisis, what he called the crisis of self-esteem. And that's part of our theme tonight as well. Namely, a part of it is people do not really understand what self-esteem amounts to and in the objectives, philosophy, reason, purpose, and self-esteem are the three cardinal values that Iran lays out in her ethics. Now, this is apart from the seven virtues in her ethics, but the ethics as a means of gaining these values, of keeping these values, maintaining these values. So self-esteem is very important to the philosophy.
Speaker 2 00:10:22 And of course it would be if you have a philosophy that's main ethic, is a rational egoism. So I think it's a culture, well, haven't even mentioned Trump. I think it's culturally interesting. I don't wanna psychoanalyze Trump, but it, it probably not, uh, in dispute that here is a president who, uh, has many narcissistic, uh, features and, and you have to admit that yet he was elected and has a great following. So people either like this, which is itself interesting, or they don't like it and vote for him anyway. But the phenomenon itself, the idea that it would be manifest in a, a president to this extent is interesting. By the way. It's not as if studies have not been done. They have been done. There's a study by Harden. We came across H A R D I n harden's study the various presidents going back, I think, to Teddy Roosevelt, who himself was, uh, classified as a narcissist.
Speaker 2 00:11:18 But, um, and, uh, it, the, the list is interesting cuz harden an academic, if you look at the, uh, calculations he does, and the measurements here are in dispute to some degree. But, uh, it's interesting that most other than Teddy Roosevelt, who was a Republican, most of the presidents who ranked high in narcissism were Democrats starting with F D R and, and Wilson and others. And most of the, uh, non narcissists were Republicans, including people like Reagan and Coolidge and others. Uh, you know, those of, um, seemingly more, uh, passive confident, genuinely confident personality. Okay, now let's move to David. Go ahead.
Speaker 0 00:12:04 Still can't hear you, really. You wanna test with Lawrence in another room while Richard's finishing up?
Speaker 1 00:12:13 I'm sorry, say again,
Speaker 0 00:12:14 Scott. I was gonna suggest, uh, testing with Lawrence in a different room while Richard's finishing up his presentation. He can invite you, but let's try that. Go ahead, Richard.
Speaker 2 00:12:27 Let's turn now to what is, uh, narcissism. First of all, let's not forget that narcissism, uh, the word itself comes from a Greek mythological figure narcissist. And not, not to go too deeply into the story, but it's interesting from the standpoint of examining this, um, narcissist, uh, becomes enamored in the, in the story of his own image in a pond. And the longest short of it is it ruins him <laugh>. And prior to this, he's got admirers, he's got potential lovers. I think echo, look for echo in this story, Echo's a great, she's a great character in this story, and Echo is trying to get his attention and to no avail because, uh, for the first time kinda reminds me of mirror, mirror on the wall, you know, who's the fairest of them all. And that's narcissist and it ruins his life. He is so preoccupied with his own image, he cannot literally carry on his life.
Speaker 2 00:13:38 So I think it's interesting just from the standpoint of you can always remember that of course, it's a reminder that this is not a rational approach to life. <laugh>. Now people are more or less narcissistic, so they still survive. I mean, Trump became president. So it's not like it incapacitates you in the sense that narcissists incapacitated himself, but to the ex, put it this way, to the extent you're a narcissist, you're going to, uh, incapacitate yourself and make yourself un unable, uh, to live and live well and live happily. Now, David and I in this case said, what is narcissism? I mean, we went right to the basic sources. We got the Mayo Clinic is one. We have the DSM known as the Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders Fifth Edition. By the way, we should be clear, David is a philosopher, a fabulous one. I'm a political economist.
Speaker 2 00:14:29 We are not psychologists on the other end. We're pretty good at researching things. And, um, we've been watching this issue and looking at this issue for a long time. So take that for what it is. I'm sure there is, uh, psychologists and psychiatrists out there who know way more than we do. And if we're misstating any of this, by all means, chime in. But here's what we found, uh, in terms of, of traits, usually with, uh, the, the acronyms are narcissistic Personality disorder, that would be N p D. There's something also called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. Uh, by the way, separately, ba as, as far back as the mid sixties, uh, Rosenberg developed something called the Self-Esteem Scale. And, uh, critiques of that had to do with the fact that they were self-reporting. I mean, they would ask people, uh, uh, in like, in surveys, well, you know, what do you think?
Speaker 2 00:15:22 What do you think of yourself in your capacity? So you can imagine the methodological problems associated with that. If the people are have fake self-esteem to begin with, they're gonna answer the questions in such a way that make themselves look good to the questioner. So, um, there's been lots of critiques of that, but give these psychiatrists and psychologists and researchers credit for trying to, uh, bring metrics to, um, to phenomenon. But, uh, and regarding N P d Narcissistic Personality Disorder, let me just give you some of those. And this is right off of, if you wanna look for this, the Mayo Clinic, uh, website, people with NB N P D can now have, quote, have an unreasonably high sense of self importance. Now, unreasonably itself should, uh, be an alert to, well, it's not tethered in reality, it's not reasonable, it's not realistic, it's not rational.
Speaker 2 00:16:18 And that does not certainly square with rational egoism. Now, high sense of self importance, uh, I mean, self-efficacy and the idea that you feel important or you feel efficacious is important, of course. But it also says, now I'm quoting, requiring constant, excessive admiration, unquote. Now, the first thing to ask there is admiration. Well, guess what? Admiration from others. So it's other oriented, and it doesn't specify who these others are. That's what I meant before about the idea of that, well, this seems like it could be promiscuous. This is not just significant. Others, others that you independently have indicated are valuable to you, and therefore you prize their judgment. That that's okay. Now, excessive and in the idea of excessive, like unearned, un unjustified, uh, admiration from others. All right, here's another one, quote, feel that they deserve privileges and special treatment, unquote. Now, first thing I thought of here was VIPs, very important persons, you know, they get valet parking, they get special treatment.
Speaker 2 00:17:28 And again, the idea of privileges, uh, something others wouldn't get if you really had a core sense of self-confidence. And, and, and then it was, why would you care whether you had special privileges and special treatment from others? Here's a third one from Mayo. Expect to be recognized as superior, even without achievements. I'm just quoting from Mayo. Now, this is the whole idea of superior, inferior that David and I have Signified is very interesting because it is kind of a relativistic approach, right? Here's the narcissist here. The idea is my value comes from my comparing myself to others and ranking myself. And not even ranking objectively. Like, you know, you could objectively say you're smarter than you're the smartest guy in the room, so to speak. No, it's this idea of I'm superior or I'm inferior. The the obsession you can see is ranking with others.
Speaker 2 00:18:27 But, but the idea that it, that it goes on and says even without achievements is quite interesting. So who could be a better judge of themselves than oneself, right? You can easily fool others. But the one judging themselves without achievements and still feeling superior is so pathetic. So obviously unjustified, it's the unearned and the unearned is fundamentally unjust. And justice is one of the seven great virtues on Rand identified, right? So is this not all of self-esteem? And this whole debate really is an issue of not just judging others, but judging yourself. Uh, what could be more important than judging yourself objectively, warts and all. As they say, warts and all are the good and the bad, uh, for purposes of improvement anyway. All right. Here's another one on the list. Quote. Those who make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are, unquote, <laugh>. Now, again, seem bigger, seem bigger.
Speaker 2 00:19:29 To who? Out to outsiders. You can't fool yourself. Well, some people are self delusional, but self delusion is actually part of the narcissistic approach. But again, you see the other oriented part of it. All right, here's another one, quote. Tend to be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, uh, the perfect mate, unquote. Well, fantasy world is not real world is it, again. So the themes you're seeing here are unreality, not tethered to facts and other oriented, uh, other oriented being. I mean, altruism literally means other ism. So any kind of obsession with others and what o with others think of you is, uh, not an egoistic ethic, but an altruistic, uh, approach. Uh, a couple of others just quickly be critical of, and look down on people they feel are not important. So some of the literature shows that narcissists are not very good at, uh, empathizing with others, dealing with others.
Speaker 2 00:20:28 They always feel like they're in competition with others, and specifically wanting to debase others, not because others deserve debasement, but because it makes the inferior narcissist feel superior. Uh, here's another one. Um, well, I said this just now quote, but I want to anchor it to the Mayo definitions, quote, have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others, unquote, this is what's sometimes called the no empathy, uh, trait. Now, here's another one that might be interesting to object. Objective is quote, they tend to be quote, envious of others and believe others envy them, unquote. Now, envy and objectivism is a very bad thing, <laugh>. It's not just, it's not just jealousy. Oh, I would like to have what others have, let me emulate them. And now envy, uh, entails a desire to destroy. If I can't have it, they ain't gonna have it.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 And, and, and also interestingly, to believe that others envy them is, uh, very malevolent attitude, isn't it? If you had a benevolent attitude toward others, you would respect their achievements. You wouldn't feel inferior if they were objectively superior, and you wouldn't assume the worst in them that they're out to get you. Uh, here's another one, A couple more. One, uh, quote, behave in an arrogant way, brag a lot and come across as conceited, sometimes called super sillus, sometimes sanc demos. Uh, David and I talked about this for a while, uh, to, uh, be arrogant. Uh, arrogant is sometimes defined as overconfidence. In other words, once again, unjustified confidence. So it's not that self-confidence is bad, but arrogance is like unjustified self-confidence. One, again, uh, again, unjustified like based on the facts and arrogant. Uh, the root interesting is arrogate. If you say somebody ar irrigates something, they really basically take something, uh, in an unwarranted way.
Speaker 2 00:22:40 Uh, okay, I'm not gonna, that's enough from the Mayo Clinic. If you just look up the Mayo Clinic and, and these, um, these various traits, I think you'll see the beginnings of why this is not fundamentally egoism in the sense of, uh, Ayn Rand's conception of it. And by the way, those of you who not familiar with Objectivism, the key book here is, uh, Ayn Rand's, the Virtue of Selfishness 1964, and the subtitle, uh, which people usually forget a new concept of egoism. Now, why would she use that? Um, the idea of the new concept that the old concept, if you will, the nian view of egoism as the, you know, the beast who runs rough shot over others, who sacrifices others to themselves in Contradistinction, say to the, um, you know, the Christian view that you are selfless, uh, and that you sacrifice yourself for others.
Speaker 2 00:23:43 Um, and so she, she wants a new concept of vi egoism. She develops that. And, and the key here is tying it to reason and rationality. You know, nietzche, we all know that Nietzsche devoted it and based it on feelings, urges, the will to power. These are all non-rational, irrational ways of, of going at Egoism. So, uh, to put it negatively narcissism is not, uh, egoism. But the question is, what is egoism? And, and this audience will know most of I Rand's argument, but it starts with this idea that you are to be the beneficiary of your own actions. When you hear that, she said it this way too, she said, when you hear that, it doesn't sound negative at all. Why do people take self-interest and self-love and selfishness? The word they give it as a necessarily evil thing. It's because she says of this false presumption that sacrifice is unavoidable, inhuman affairs.
Speaker 2 00:24:45 And then the only question is, will you be the sacrificial animal or will others? And she says, um, how about no sacrifice? How about we not act like animals and rather act like humans? Meaning we have reason, the capacity for reason. Our self-interest is not automatic. By the way, that's one of the caricatures of egoism, that it's automatic, that everybody unavoidably whatever the hell they choose and do, are being self-interested, not so people can be self-destructive. Uh, so pursuing your self-interest requires learning, uh, discovering what that self-interest is. And, uh, there's no, uh, real proper way to do that unless you use reason. You can't take a public opinion poll or ask your friends preachers and teachers, well, you can if they're reasonable. But so, um, a little more on what egoism is. Um, it requires, obviously rationality. Rationality is the main virtue in Iran's ethics.
Speaker 2 00:25:55 The narcissistic basically has a non-rational, a non-objective concept of his worth. And, uh, and it's worth, I think, saying something about what in the literature is described as the durability or lack of the lack of being an instability of self-esteem. Now, they don't quite understand self-esteem in the way Ayran did, but they're interested in how the narcissist, they'll say, seems to have a very kind of fickle, uh, ephemeral e sense of importance. In other words, it fluctuates up and down depending on daily events. Well, you could see why this would happen if you have external sources basically driving your self worth than disapproval from others, or setbacks in your career, or breakups in your romance will crush you. And you won't have, like an internal core, an unshakeable internal core that doesn't move regardless of the contingencies of the world. But to the narcissist, they do, and they must, cuz their source of, of self worth is external.
Speaker 2 00:27:17 And, and as I said before, not just external to rationally, objectively demonstrable people, but to anyone, any and all comers, just give me more eyeballs. And if I lose followers, man, I'm gonna have a bad day and feel badly about myself. That is just ridiculous. But that's the narcissist. So, uh, not to bring in other, uh, psychologies here, but the, but the, um, bipolar personality, the man, the manic depressive up one day down the next, that's the narcissist. But that's not a core self-esteem, genuine self-esteem, uh, approach. Is it, or, or issue Is it, uh, by the way, uh, David,
Speaker 3 00:28:00 Uh, I'm trying to get back. Uh, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 00:28:04 Hear you hear? Okay, David, now I, I have to tell you, your voice is beautiful and hearable and the dent, the, the dent. Thank you. Alright, I'm gonna stop David, cuz you're probably dying to get in here. But I hope I've, uh, kept up my end for a while here. But we hear you loud and clear. You sound great.
Speaker 3 00:28:24 Okay. Uh, thanks Richard. And you've been doing a great job. Um, you know, we, we had an outline and, um, that we developed, uh, and we talk, we've talked so much back and forth over the last couple weeks in preparation for this that we're, we kind of thought we'd continuous some sort of, kind of a conversation too for, uh, at least our part of it. Yeah. Um, Richard, I, I wanted to, um, say a bit about, more about self-esteem, if, unless you've covered the Brandon, uh, part of the discussion.
Speaker 2 00:28:56 Yes, go ahead. I have not done that yet. I was gonna turn to, uh, that aspect of our outline. So yeah, you're talking about, okay, for those who don't know, basically page two of our outline, right, David? We're looking at it ourselves. Yes. I haven't done that yet.
Speaker 3 00:29:09 Right? Okay. I don't think we've shared the outline with everyone. But, um, anyway, the point here is that, um, narcissism is not ex it's often described as excessive self-esteem, and that is just wrong, um, on a couple reasons. And, but let's start with what self-esteem is. I think Brandon, um, gave the best account of this in, uh, or the best summary in, uh, his book, the Six Pillars of Self-Esteem. He says, uh, self-esteem is the disposition to experience oneself as competent to cope with the basic challenges of life. And as worthy of life that is competent to live my own life and worthy of pursuing my own life. He continues, it is an intimate experience. It resides in the core of one's being, it's what I think and feel about myself, not what someone else thinks or feels about me. So the difference between narcissism and self-esteem is not one of degree or inflated self-esteem.
Speaker 3 00:30:17 Um, it's qualitative, uh, on two counts. One is that self-esteem are your internal convictions about yourself, not what anyone else thinks about you. It's not external. Uh, they're, the ex sources are not external. Now children are growing up, you know, for a while, need their parents to be intermediaries between the child in reality, including the reality of the child's self. So, you know, some degree of support and nurturing is appropriate, is appropriate. But at, in a mature adulthood self-esteem is your view of yourself. It's internal. And the second thing is that, um, it has to be earned by living in accordance with objective standards. Narcissists depend on assessments by other people and comparisons with them, whatever the standards of those people are. They're second handers in broadly speaking, to use, um, an objectivist term, um, that Brandon developed. Um, so, and this difference, these differences are, as I said, qualitative.
Speaker 3 00:31:32 They're not quantitative. Um, pride or self-esteem is distinguished qualitatively from two opposites. Pride means earned esteem, esteem for yourself. Narcissism and humility are both failures in that regard, because an earned self-esteem for Lord self has to be based on your actual character actions and, um, choices in life and your values, what you have done, what you have made of yourself. And, uh, by a rational standard, uh, narcissism is, uh, rejects the objective standard and goes by what others think of you. So it's just not in the same ballpark as, uh, self-esteem. And the same is true of the opposite, uh, humility that's often considered the, uh, uh, you know, the, the opposite of narcissism and too little self-esteem. But the person of humility, um, lacks self-esteem because he can't judge himself. He's not sufficiently cognitive or cognitively aware of himself, or maybe he is and just doesn't, has failed to live up to standards.
Speaker 3 00:32:53 So the qualitative difference here is, is, um, is stark from the standpoint of a correct, you know, rational, um, standard of, uh, of interest, uh, standard of value. Uh, just as a sidebar, some of you are familiar with Aristotle's view, um, of a virtue like pride or, or the pursuit of self-esteem as Aristotle's view of virtu as a mean between extreme extremes. Um, and indeed he talks about what we would call pride. He calls it, um, the grits old man. And he says it is a, uh, the means between humility and narcissism, or his word is vanity. Um, and, uh, this is a better analysis than many, uh, philosophically, but it's still, it's quantitative Notice that it's quantitative pride is the means between two extremes. And what we're saying is that it's not, that's not the case. It's distinguished qualitatively. So, um, that is, um, uh, I think the essential point to be made about, uh, about self-esteem. Uh, Richard, we, we also have on our list to talk about, um, the deeper analysis, the kind of impoverished self, uh, that some psychologists have said, lies behind, uh, lies behind narcissism. Um, uh, you wanna go into that? Do we have, how's our time doing?
Speaker 2 00:34:26 We are 40, uh, 35 minutes into it, so maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Scott, is that, uh, sound right?
Speaker 0 00:34:32 Yeah, about 10. I wanna start opening up the audience questions. Yeah. By about 6 45.
Speaker 2 00:34:37 All right, let's, um, alright, so let's finish it up with this. Let me, uh, David, let me give you about five minutes and then I'm gonna, I want to go back to you because, uh, I want to hear more from you. But there, um, David located and, and Rob Zinsky located, by the way, just to cite a very good essay from Darlene Lancer in Psychology Today. I, I believe this is a popular, I've read, it's a popular account, but a very good one, understanding the mind of a narcissist. Now, listen to this cuz this is very close to what David and I and Rob would say. Quote, despite having a seemingly strong personality, narcissists lack a core self. Their self-image and thinking and behavior are other oriented in order to stabilize and validate their self-esteem and fragile, fragmented self. Wow. Quote, it's a common misconception that they love themselves.
Speaker 2 00:35:31 They may actually dislike themselves immensely. They're, I'm still quoting here, they're inflated self flattery, perfectionism and arrogance are merely covers for the self-loathing they don't admit usually even to themselves. Instead, it's a projected, uh, and it's projected outward in their dis now get this in their disdain for and criticism of others. They're too afraid to look at themselves cuz they believe the truth would be devastating emotionally. They may be dead inside and hungering to be filled and validated, um, by others. Um, by the way, there's a famous book, it's been around quite a while, but to give you the, the sense of what David and I are kind of rejecting, well, explicitly rejecting, uh, Sam vk very many years ago wrote of narcissism <laugh> as Now get this malignant self-love
Speaker 3 00:36:32 <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:36:33 So what's the opposite of malignant David? Benign? We're talking about tumors here or something.
Speaker 3 00:36:40 Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 00:36:41 <laugh>, isn't it? I guess it's interesting, isn't it? Because it captures this error. We think of, uh, well, there's versions of self-love, there's malignant and Ben, and, and we're saying, well, that this is not self-love at all. And as, um, Darlene Lancer points out, um, self-loathing, by the way, I think there's a parallel here to another key objectiveness concept, capitalism. So when we hear words like crony capitalism or state capitalism, or stakeholder capitalism, why do we resist so much? Because words should mean something. And when you start bringing in adjectives that contaminate and confuse the matter, that's not good. Uh, conceptual confusion is, uh, very bad for human, uh, wellbeing and happiness. So similarly here though, you know, as David pointed out, the idea that, that these are alleged versions of egoism, too much egoism or too much self-confidence or it's self-love, but malignant is a very wrong way of going about it, and, um, hurts our cause, if you will. Uh, in terms of conceptual clarity, um,
Speaker 3 00:37:55 I, I just want to, Richard, I, let me add to that, you mentioned, uh, Beckman's book, um, self-love. He invokes a, a concept that is, um, was, uh, discussed a while back in psychology, uh, not so much anymore, uh, although he's an, an exception, uh, between a true self and a false self. Yeah. Uh, often, uh, resulting in this analysis by, uh, uh, the true self being, uh, developed from childhood, uh, when the self has felt vulnerable to excessive demands by parents or neglect by parents or whatever. And then a false self is what the child learns to project to the world. And, um, uh, uh, Beckman says something really interesting. He says, there's a major difference between one's true self and reflect itself. Loving your true self is healthy, adaptive, and functional. Loving a reflection that is a false self has two major drawbacks.
Speaker 3 00:38:59 And this is important. One depends on the existence and availability of the reflection to produce the emotion of self-love. But what if you're getting negative feedback from people? But secondly, hear this, the absence of a compass and objective in realistic yardstick by which to ju judge the authenticity of a reflection. In other words, it's impossible to tell whether the reflection is true to reality. And if so, to what extent? The popular misconception is that narcissists love themselves in reality, they direct their love and other people's impressions of them. Uh, and so I, I'm, I think this is, um, worth considering. It's Richard said, neither of us are psychologists. And so, um, we're not, uh, deeply immersed in, uh, all the research and theorizing, but we are, you know, philosophically knowledgeable objectiveness and with the conception of, uh, ethics and of the aspects of human nature that lie behind the ethical principles. And so, um, I find this plausible, uh, in terms of the analysis of what narcissism is. And also, uh, you know, honestly, from my own experience of people,
Speaker 2 00:40:18 Yeah, and I, and I would add David, uh, just in terms of sources, um, that we might recommend, um, Malin, m o l l o n, there's an interesting, really interesting 1993 book, but notice the title, the Fragile Self Subtitled, the Structure, the Structure of Narcissistic Disturbance, <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:40:40 Disturbance.
Speaker 2 00:40:41 Again, he's not a, not an objectivist, but that's a pretty good, uh, account. Here's another one. Uh, more recently, 2008, Boston, b o s s o n at all, untangling the links between narcissism and self-esteem. There, David and I were pleasantly surprised to find a lot of good academic work on distinguishing exactly what we're trying to distinguish tonight, narcissism versus self-esteem. And, um, another good one is brummel men. B r u m m e l m a N. He often co-authors, but Brummel men is, I think is from nor, uh, Netherlands, one of them 2016, separating narcissism from self-esteem. Another one, how to raise a child's self-esteem. And that one particularly says make, to make sure they're not narcissists. Now, uh, David and I have also noticed that they do not ever cite Nathaniel Brandon, and we're not quite sure why we think it's somewhat of a, of an injustice, but to the extent that the academics will only cite things that appear in academic journals, that was not Brandon Forte, but in, in Justice David, would you agree there?
Speaker 2 00:41:55 It is undeniable that Na, Nathaniel, Brandon had a lot to do with the self-esteem movement. I think in our own studies and revisiting this, the kind of concepts that he and Iran came up with that are relevant to tonight are things like pseudo self-esteem over a whole section. There's a whole multi-page section called Pseudo Self-Esteem in his book called The Psychology of Self-Esteem from 1968. And of course, many of those essays were e edited by Iran when they were together. Another one, if you look up the concept, counterfeit individualism, uh, I don't have it in front of me, but I believe counterfeit individualism is one of the essays in, uh, the virtue of selfishness. It's by Brandon. Another one would be his concept of social metaphysics. Now, again, not quite narcissism, but again, the idea that we get our reality, not from reality, but from what other people think and do and what they think of us. And then obviously secondhand, there's e rand's concept of the second hander. If you go online and look in the Eran lexicon and just put in second hander, there are many excerpts from her kn her books, including the Fountain Head, having to deal with that. So those are, you know, either closely related, tangentially related to our topic, right, David, and, um, we're, you know, worth examining, worth studying.
Speaker 3 00:43:15 Yeah, absolutely. And act, I would just add that the fountain head is almost a textbook, uh, about narcissism, although she does not use the word. In fact, uh, Rand only uses the word once that I could find. And that was in talking about, uh, her review of BF Skinner. Um, yeah. But in any case, um, but yes, look at Peter Keating, uh, Bruce Howard Rourke. Uh, we have a number of examples maybe we'll get to in the question period, but, uh, uh, that is, you know, where the secondhand or, and the, um, other directive person, um, are versus the self, uh, self-sufficient, the prime mover, so to speak, um, are the differences most dramatically illustrated and shown in concrete obey, fictional detail. So anyway, maybe we should stop here, um, and uh, open the question period.
Speaker 2 00:44:11 Great. And as David said, uh, David and I came across, we were both reminded of the, uh, very early scene in the Fountainhead where Peter Keating is graduating from, uh, Stanton Institute. And that there is a hilarious three page account of a narcissistic Peter. And, uh, but we'll leave it to the Q and a if it's interesting in the q and a. I'll quote from it. But, uh, otherwise I won't. Um, yeah, agreed. Thank you, David. Um, boy, I love working with you on this. This was, uh, wonderful. This was great.
Speaker 3 00:44:44 Good. Yeah, same here.
Speaker 0 00:44:46 Thank you both for that. Uh, great opening. Uh, I've got questions, but we've got people coming to the stage. We've got Northern 2023. Thanks for joining.
Speaker 4 00:44:57 Hello. Thanks for all. Bring me up of a question I just joined. Not sure, maybe you already discussed this, but I, I encountered this, this question many, many times. Every time I spoke of, uh, to people of objectivism and objective values. They believe me, they believe me, <laugh>, they discharge accused me of, uh, narcissism and, you know, label me that orders a cell. So, uh, does, does, does what, what is the best answer we can give them? Uh, that, that, um, you know, just to differentiate what is exactly how that the difference between it goes and rational or goes and narcissism, apart from that narcissism is a psychological state. Thanks so much. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:45:59 I would, uh, I would say one thing is to ask them what they mean by narcissism. And if they, if they, if a a, uh, an account of it that's anything like the one we give and that most psychologists would give, then ask, well, how, how does that apply to me? I'm just, I'm being rational. Narcissists are not rational and work from there. Usually I think it's because people say, you know, if you're pursuing your self-interest, it must be at the expense of other people. You're not being a social, uh, you know, par, socially responsible. That's a deeper question, um, that we touched on, Rick Richard did. Um, we believe in a, a system of trade. We don't exploit people. We believe in win-win situations, but I mean, you can go down all kinds of paths from that.
Speaker 2 00:46:58 Yeah. And I would a, I would add David, that, uh, that's a really very good question. I, I first thought of it as he wants an elevator pitch. That's what we usually call, give me a, give me a 15 second <laugh> synopsis of what we just said. So you could dis dismiss someone at a cocktail party or something. Well, we don't wanna dismiss people, we wanna engage them. But, uh, no, that's wor that's a good question cuz that means we've essentialized it. I, you know, I think that if I were to, if I face this challenge, I think the first thing I would do is say, by the way, did you know that narcissist himself was incapacitated? <laugh>? Cause he, cause he was so inward looking that he had no life. It ruined his life. But getting beyond mythology, uh, I think the difference here is it's not that people don't know what narcissists are.
Speaker 2 00:47:51 I don't know, David and I have not talked about it this way, but it's that they don't know what rational legalism is. So if you said to them, oh, by narcissism you must mean these people who are so insecure. Here's my elevator pitch, you mean by narcissists? Those people who are so insecure internally, really, that they need validation from others, they need constant, uh, affirmation and approval from others, others, others. And they don't really have a realistic sense of their worth. The per person would be nodding I think the whole time. And then if you say them, but by the way, that is not really rational. That is not really, you need to judge yourself, not just others. You need to judge yourself above all, objectively, realistically, the good and bad of it if you're gonna live your life and improve your life and be done with. And that's it. And that's a big difference, isn't it? I think they would, they might, they would see that, might see that. That's, thank
Speaker 4 00:48:44 You. So yeah, I think we need to, uh, refer them to the fact instead of people's opinion, this is the what David said. Yeah. They're, it's not rational. And the second point, David said it so really said that the, the narcissist people, they do it at people's price. So ego is pay the price. They, they don't, they don't. Yeah. This is, this is really a good point. Thank you so much. Uh, David and Richard,
Speaker 2 00:49:19 Thank you David and I both David and I going
Speaker 5 00:49:22 On Fred. Cause in the midst of start talking to you, I heard stop voice cracking.
Speaker 0 00:49:28 Sorry about that. Go ahead, Richard.
Speaker 2 00:49:30 I just wanted to say briefly, David and I also discovered types of narcissism and one is very internal and kind of quiet and reserved and doesn't abuse others. And the other one is outwardly and, uh, ridiculing others, uh, to support and buttress their positions. So just so you're aware of that, there are these kind of, I don't know how you'd classify David quiet narcissists who seem not to bother anybody, but then the bombastic outward, uh, narcissists who are people know more about cause they see him. Um, that's just worth the distinguishing
Speaker 3 00:50:11 On Richard. The, um, the quiet ones are typically called a vulner, a vulnerable, uh, narcissist.
Speaker 2 00:50:18 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:50:19 And, um, again, they, they have, you know, a very impoverished self. Yeah. Uh, but it's more, it is more reflected on what we would often call, um, uh, passive aggressive, uh, behavior toward others. It's still hostile for others. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:50:41 Let's, uh, I appreciate, let's get Raymond in here if we can. Raymond, thank you for waiting. Are you, uh, you have to unmute by hitting the, uh, microphone button. There you go.
Speaker 6 00:50:54 Ah, there we go. Hi everyone. Can you
Speaker 0 00:50:57 Hear me? Yes, we can. Hi Ray.
Speaker 6 00:51:00 Hey
Speaker 3 00:51:00 Ray.
Speaker 6 00:51:01 Guys, um, you know, I'm glad to hear be a part of it. I really enjoyed the discussion so far by Richard and David. I just wanna add one piece here that I think you guys were alluding to or getting to, but, um, uh,
Speaker 0 00:51:18 Maybe get slightly closer to your mic.
Speaker 6 00:51:20 Ah, okay. How's this
Speaker 0 00:51:22 Better?
Speaker 6 00:51:24 Okay, so I just want to add, uh, add one piece that is, is consistent with what was said so far, but just, uh, another way of seeing it is, uh, it might be easier for some people to capture. I think one way to think of narcism is everyone has to have self-esteem. It's a basic human need, self-esteem and pride. Um, some version of feeling good about yourself. And then if you don't, if you reach a certain age or adulthood and you don't have objective measures or have a sense of stability in feeling good about yourself, or you're not sure what to base it on, um, then, then you start looking for alternative means to feel good about yourself because you gotta feel somehow you gotta feel good about yourself. Um, or at least most people would, would search for something. And that, you know, there are multiple ways that people can do this, but one way is they turn toward narcissism because that's, it's sort of a, a way to try to buttress your way, your, your self image to yourself based on something when you don't have a clear, um, objective means of doing so.
Speaker 6 00:52:45 So I just wanted to add that piece. I, I think that's sort of very much in line with what Richard was saying. Um, that's my 2 cents. Um, and obviously thank you, uh, Richard and David, that was a great discussion so far.
Speaker 3 00:53:00 Uh, Ray, is that what, what I what you're talking about makes, I mean, what your point makes a lot of sense is that what you related to what some people call defense values, that is, uh, things that take, try to take the place of a genuine value, um, but are distorted in various ways or unreal or irrational. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:53:22 Yeah. Um, so in psychology, there's a, you know, there's even something called defense mechanisms, which are psychological tools of maintaining your sense of self under various stresses in life. Um, a simple, a simple example is, you know, um, uh, you know, uh, something comes up surprising in a conversation that's a little bothersome. You laugh it off, you turn it into a joke, you know, to kind of keep the airline or to keep yourself, um, moving along. Um, so humor would be the example there. But when, when you're, um, when your, when your whole sense of self is very much in doubt, when you're very unsure whether you're a worthy person and how you could become a worthy person, if it's even possible for you as a person, then you kind of go into emergency mode for a lot of people. And you have to, you have to feel like a good person.
Speaker 6 00:54:26 You have to find some way to defend who you are to yourself. And when you just rely on everything, right? If someone praises you, you hang onto that. If, uh, if, uh, if something happens, it's momentary that's positive, you hang on to that. And so you develop this collection of, of, you know, reasons why you might feel good about yourself. And to Richard's point, they're fleeting most often because we, we kind of know being objective, that stability in self, in self-worth kind of has to come from rationality, productiveness your ability to do things that are, um, uh, measurable. I, you know, um, identifiable in the world.
Speaker 2 00:55:20 Yeah. And then we're so thankful of Ray. Raymond is a, a practitioner and specialist in psychology. So enormously helpful, Raymond, that Duke Ray that you could participate I found work on for those. Interested to study this more. There's about four or five pages in, um, Brandon's psychology of self-esteem on defense values. And, and there, here's just a couple of passages, quote, to the extent a man lacks self-esteem, he lives negatively and defensively when he chooses his particular values and goals, his primary motive is not to afford himself a positive enjoyment of existence, but to defend himself against anxiety, against painful feelings of inadequacy. Self-doubt and guilt of further down values chosen in this manner may be termed defense values. A defense value is one, motivated by fear and named at supporting a pseudo self-esteem. It's experienced in effect as a means of survival, as a substitute for rationality, but it's really an antianxiety device. Such a value is unhealthy, not necessarily by virtue of its nature, but by virtue of the motivation for choosing it.
Speaker 2 00:56:36 Um, so defense values, yeah, interesting concept. I think David and I also, you know, at the tail end of our outline, David, we were talking about how in a way the narcissist might deserve some, some empathy from us because we, you know, we, we do regard any form of pseudo individualism or pseudo self-esteem as a vice, but if it's just a manifestation of arrested development or you know, the kid damaged goods, so to damaged goods, so to speak psychologically from what we know to be broken families and, uh, bad parenting, things like that. Now, if that's true, if we have this child going through narcissism and never developing self-esteem and coming into adulthood with narcissism, um, um, we have to take in, into account that kind of stuff. So I, if, if it's that the narcissist is at least trying to make something of himself, it's pathetic, it's not realistic, but they're trying to make something of themselves rather than giving up rather than self abdication, you know, rather than quitting that is admirable to, to a degree. Right? So they're just using the wrong instrument, clearly wrong instruments, but at least they're not giving up. So I I, David, would you agree this is a more benevolent interpretation of what they're doing in order to condemn these people if they're haven't gotten outside of their childhood, uh, damage yet?
Speaker 3 00:58:04 Yeah, I think it, it's, it, it's a pretty good point Richard. And Richard was a point person who, uh, you know, made it originally I, I think was a great insight. And it, it's, it's, it's significant I think because, you know, as you said, Richard, uh, Richard, uh, objective standard regard inform of pseudo individualism or pseudo self-esteem, um, as a vice and to be judged as such and condemned. Um, and you know, I objective as philosophy includes, um, the ethic of, uh, uh, justice, which means, uh, judging people by a rational standard.
Speaker 2 00:58:47 Yep. But
Speaker 3 00:58:49 To be fully rational, I think one should take account of all the relevant circumstances, including the psychological ones. And so there's a kind of shooting from the hip form of judgment that, um, too many objectives practice. And I think this is a, uh, good reminder that, you know, try to understand before you condemn.
Speaker 2 00:59:13 Yeah. And, and one of the readings, Brummel said at one point, he was talking about the self-esteem movement in the sixties and seventies, which Brandon contributed to, and I would say thank goodness there was such a movement. And, but he said it, he had the insight to say, you know, it wasn't fully understood for what it was, which is kind of admitting that it was a new, very new, but that's what Ayn Rand said, a new concept of egoism. And he thought that to the extent you could measure a growing spread of narcissism, his view was it was an in unable to comprehend self-esteem. So the oddity there is, the assessment was had there not <laugh>, had there not been a self-esteem movement, there would not have been this kind of twisted interpretation of what self-esteem meant. And we, we haven't, we haven't mentioned this tonight, but we we're all aware, I'm sure you've heard of the conservatives who will quite, will quite rightly say, I'm sick and tired of my kid being told he's the greatest.
Speaker 2 01:00:16 He's wonderful. Everybody gets a trophy and they use this, they quite, now we would agree with that. That's fake. And, but they use it to condemn self-esteem, genuine self-esteem, because you know, much of this literature says religions are very su uh, suspicious of any case for self-esteem, any case for pride. Pride is one of the deadly, isn't it? One of the seven deadly sins, David, in Christianity. So when they hear, yeah, it's the worst <laugh>, when they hear self, let alone self-esteem, they're not inclined to say, oh, please tell me more. How does this ran Brandon concept work with reason and no, they want dictates from God and commandments and things like that. So they're not inclined to look nicely upon self-esteem. So they're, they're easily able to latch onto this, look how goofy self-esteem is being instituted in the schools and stuff like that is self-indulgent and, you know, lying to the kids about their possibility. It's true they are doing that, but that's not self-esteem. That's not genuine self-esteem. I just wanted to get that on the record. Well,
Speaker 0 01:01:26 Uh, let's, uh, give Connie a chance. She's been, uh, patiently waiting. Thanks, Connie.
Speaker 7 01:01:33 Well, thank you Scott. And yeah, very patiently waiting. I thought we were gonna wrap this up, and so I'm glad that we've got a little more time and, uh, I, I've just been so impressed that, that Peggy came here and I think, uh, Peggy should be part of, uh, the next talks or when she gets more comfortable maybe coming up on stage. She's new to Clubhouse, but, um, my question actually just from my background and so forth, is the concept of like ethical egoism and healthcare. And, uh, I was curious, uh, Richard and David, what your, your thoughts are on that. Like, how do you have egoism and altruism and, and balance that?
Speaker 2 01:02:25 Well, Connie, if I understand you right, um, and tell me if I'm wrong. I have heard this argument before that healthcare and sometimes, uh, education and schooling and various other things are, are classified as, uh, caregiving, the, uh, caring sector, so to speak. And that seems and caring is then conflated with concern for others, and therefore it's seen as a clash, like who would go into that field or do well in that field if they go into it, if they're ethical egoists. Now, before I, before I go on, is that close to what you're thinking, or is that completely off base?
Speaker 7 01:03:12 It's not completely off base, but it, it goes further than that because Okay. Part of ethical egoism, I would understand it to be that you need to advocate for that patient and you need to encourage them to have self-interest in doing well and getting better. So I guess there's two trains of thought I I had on that, which I tend to do. I tend to have tons of tabs, open <laugh>, but it's the person that goes into
Speaker 2 01:03:44 Yep.
Speaker 7 01:03:45 Field. But it's also part of what you do to encourage the patient to have self-interest and, you know, being egoistic and taking care of themself and extend that further to those who take care of those Yeah. Like family members and that sort of thing. So yeah. Yeah, a lot of tabs open there, but you were on the right train.
Speaker 2 01:04:10 I like that. In my, in, in my own field of investments, I'll often be asked, well, what is this? Uh, sounds very similar to Dr. Patient. What is this, uh, fiduciary duty to, uh, the investor. So the investor who's not a specialist, they'll come and they'll give you some of their assets and they'll see please manage my portfolio or manage my estate. And there's a long, well-documented tradition of trustees. Interestingly, they call 'em trustees, they're trusted advisors and, but their self-interest is in, I'm going to serve the client. The client wants me to manage their assets, but the serve part sounds weird, right? Sounds weird to an egoist. What do you mean serving? Yeah, but it's a trader. As David said before, it's the trader principal, you are paying me for a service. I'm a doctor, you're a patient. I want you to recover. I have a self-interest in your recovering, uh, I'm an investment advisor. I have a self-interest in your portfolio. Uh, appreciating, not depreciating, but there is this kind of, if you're getting to this Connie, there is this kind of fiduciary, this concept of a fiduciary, um, an an a principal agent relationship where the principal owes to the agent, uh, certain things, but of course the agent is paying the principal for that. So I'll stop there. I don't know if you want to add to that, David.
Speaker 3 01:05:31 Yeah, I would add one point, um, maybe on a more general level, every profession, um, to the extent that it's productive, it's productive because it's aiming, uh, to create some kind of value. And there are standards for, uh, how, how to create that value and what the constituents of that value are, SoCon and relationship to a, uh, doctor patient or a therapist client. Um, yes, restoring the patient's health or wellbeing, self-esteem is, that's your goal. Just, I, I, I was a teacher for many years. Richard is a teacher. Our goal as teachers is, um, to, uh, help our students master a subject and gain, uh, knowledge and, and abil mental ability. So those, those are internal goals that define the profession. Each of us chooses the profession that we're in because we enjoy that form of work and we demand what you might call external rewards, like, uh, first of all, money, of course, but also, um, respect and, and growth, and, and proper, proper, proper, you know, sense of reputation. But those are the external rewards. The internal, uh, goal is always by a standard of what value am I creating? And that's true whether we're talking about a teacher or a therapist, or a guy running, a CEO, running a business. He's creating value. That's his standard. And, uh, good ones, uh, hold to that standard and name for
Speaker 2 01:07:16 Great. It might, it might be interesting to know. It might be interesting to note also, Connie, that the, uh, the trader principal that David and I are talking about, the mutually beneficial relationship. It's interesting that in Gerald Jurisprudence, um, when you get to law courts and things like that, there's something called, uh, lawyer client confidentiality or, um, doctor patient confidentiality, where if there's some kind of civil or other suit is being brought, they're, they don't pierce this partnership. It's improper to get in between the lawyer and, and defendant, you know, the doctor and patient, which is very interesting now. And because it, it signifies in our system, it signifies the importance of this, uh, collaborative relationship. It should not be pierced by others, should not be invaded by even in a, a contested civil suit. I think it's similar, by the way, with, um, spouses, is it true that, I'm pretty sure it's true. Spouses cannot testify against the other spouse. So another example of a partnership not to be pierced because it's a partnership that there's not a, um, conflict between the two, but a partnership mutually beneficial relationship.
Speaker 8 01:08:35 Good. Uh, jp, thank you. Um, I am dropped by, uh, because it's, um, it's, it's from an article that I read that na can also be trade to form of addiction to, um, pleasure hormones like, or even, even, um, uh, uh, adrenaline that these people derive from being light. And, uh, it's, uh, I I, I, I wanted to ask a, uh, person here on how is this, is, is, are we leading through an of narcissism in the era of, and, and, and followers and how there are also a noticeable in world leader are considered narcissist? I mean, the go to, of course, for everyone Trump, but, uh, I see a whole, uh, so how pro, pro narcissism,
Speaker 2 01:09:59 Uh, David, do you wanna take that or, I'm glad to take it.
Speaker 3 01:10:02 Uh, why don't you, Richard? I'm not sure I've heard the question accurately.
Speaker 2 01:10:06 That's break up. That's okay. Okay. JP asked whether narcissism might be seen as something like an addiction, uh, like a drug or some kind where people get high. Well, not to put words in your mouth, jp, hi, on, uh, well, I have more likes this, uh, I have more likes today, and I got more followers and blah, blah, blah. I remember, I remember Trump used to obsess about how many people were in the stadium, and the media and the media <laugh>, the media would get 'em on. He'd said, ah, you know, I packed the house and I was standing room only outside. And that, that kind of thing is like an immediate hit to the, I I, my answer would be something like, if, I don't know, I don't know those studies, but they sound plausible in the following sense. To the extent narcissism is non-rational.
Speaker 2 01:10:52 It's not an objective, rational basis for your self-esteem. And, and then it's gonna be reliant on others, you know, coming and going, so to speak, into your orbit, affirming or not affirming, approving or not approving, criticizing or, or flattering you. It, it sounds more sensationalist. I don't mean sens, I mean sens in the sense of a sensation and, and an ephemeral, fleeting, emotional thing like a drug. And so that sounds right to me. Uh, if it's been characterized that way, I, it wouldn't surprise me. And of course, an addiction, it's anything like that is obviously not rational either. But, uh, thoughts, David? Uh, the idea of a addictiveness in na, I'm not sure we came across that, but it, it seems plausible to me.
Speaker 3 01:11:42 Well, yeah. In, in the sense, at least in terms of similarity. But, uh, my understanding of addiction is that it has a specific medical and psychological, uh, definition involving ti dependence accommodation to a substance, for example, like alcohol or, yeah. Uh, tobacco or whatever, uh, drugs. And, um, it should, the term should be, it should be careful about broadening it to too much, to any kind of enjoyment that we chronically pursue. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I love, you know, working with Richard, for example, I could, you know, we could talk all day and I, yeah. You know, I, I wouldn't run out of, uh, interest. So is that an addiction? No. It's just, you know, I love doing that. And, um, yeah. So I, I, I, my, I'm, I'm just issuing a, uh, kind of a cautionary note about, you know, taking addiction as a term that has a specific meaning, um, and broadening it to apply way outside its field, uh,
Speaker 2 01:12:53 As in these days. But the, the version I hear at jp, maybe you're think it's a, I agree with that, David, but if it's like physiological, you're feeling, yeah. That's more like an addiction. You know, when people say things like, uh, you tell the kids we're gonna go off grid the following week, the family's gonna take a vacation and the mountains and the kids go nuts. The kids can't do it. Uh, put down the iPhone, put, uh, stop visiting Facebook. And, and so in measures like that, where you see people going through withdrawals, so to speak, it's really painful pain painful for them not to check in with their this and that social media. Maybe that's what, is that what you're thinking of jp? That there is that phenomenon does sound like? Yeah.
Speaker 8 01:13:42 Yeah. There's, there, there's studies that are characterizing our times as, as, as being, uh, an epidemic of narcissism, personality disorder because of the induced dopamine hits that, uh, you can orders.
Speaker 3 01:14:00 Yeah,
Speaker 2 01:14:02 I, if you, if you, I, I actually searched as having seen that phrase, epidemic, narcissism, narcissist epidemic. I looked it up. And there's even a book called The Narcissism Epidemic, uh, subtitle, living in an Age of Entitlement, which is interesting, but it was written in 2009. So that's a, that is long before, I think long. I think the iPhone was introduced in 2008. So interestingly, and that was done by two academics, that book. So they measured and found a rise in narcissism, I think from like 1979 to 2008. So, however, measure this has been going on for a while, and the idea whether it's an epidemic or not, I don't know, but that, that language does come up. If you put down, if you look up narcissism as an epidemic, which sounds like it's addictive, that does exist. That study does exist
Speaker 6 01:14:57 There. May I, may I comment on this one? Mm.
Speaker 0 01:15:01 Uh, Raymond, I do wanna give Fred a chance as well.
Speaker 6 01:15:04 Go ahead, Fred.
Speaker 0 01:15:05 Go ahead, Raymond. Uh, you wanted to say something quickly?
Speaker 6 01:15:08 No, I, it's not essential. I think I, I, well, we'll go,
Speaker 0 01:15:13 Fred. We'll come back to you if we have time.
Speaker 10 01:15:17 Hi everybody.
Speaker 0 01:15:18 Hi Fred.
Speaker 10 01:15:19 Uh, uh, non-expert, non amateur. Uh, um, I, I came in a little late. I caught up with a tail end of the conversation about Productivist. Uh, I don't know if you guys meant objective, some kind of objectiveist therapies or coping mechanisms for na narcissism, or is that what I thought I heard?
Speaker 3 01:15:41 I don't.
Speaker 10 01:15:42 Okay. Yeah. Cause I was wondering if a narcissist can be expected to be objective or rational, uh, especially in dealing with the, the disorder. I guess that's my question for comments.
Speaker 2 01:15:55 Well, I think our view would be objectivity is the way out of this error, the way out of this, uh, condition, which is not in your self-interest. So we, uh, but when you say coping mechanism, I do know in psychology, coping mechanism is, is almost like, uh, well, I must be a narcissist now. How do I handle it? How do I put up with it? I can't rid myself of it, so I need mechanisms to live with it. But that, we already talked about that those are what's called defense values, and they do defend yourself, so to speak, which is better than sacrificing yourself, but they're not psychologically healthy. So, um, yeah.
Speaker 3 01:16:37 I'll stop there. I, I think this is a, this would be a good point to ask Ray, uh, who, you know, is a practicing psychiatrist and probably has some insight, uh, from theory experience on this Ray.
Speaker 6 01:16:52 Um, I think, I think very much, very much what Richard was saying, uh, narc, many people with narcissistic tendencies do, do improve and get themselves outta the situation sometimes help with professionals, sometimes even on their own. A big part of it is, uh, you know, being honest with yourself, creating an objective measure of who you are deciding to be, uh, to be, uh, to be honest about what your, what your achievements have been or failures have been, and to build successes from here on out in whatever way you can that are, that are true and objective. So, um, uh, you know, I think objectivity is an important part of the solution.
Speaker 2 01:17:53 Uh,
Speaker 0 01:17:53 I'm sorry, I, uh, Scott, are you there? I thought you were gonna respond, but, uh, I've got some No, that's okay. Questions myself. Yeah. Um, you know, so I, I'm trying to just summarize it myself as the point to, uh, of, of the advocates of self-sacrifice to kind of conflate narcissism with egoism to kind of make people feel bad about pursuing their own values.
Speaker 2 01:18:25 Uh, well, I'm, I'm not sure, I'm not sure it's motivated, Scott, by those who advocate, self-sacrifice. It, it might be, you know, the real truly, you know, vicious types who want no egoism at all. Um, I, I don't know. I think it's more benign than that. I think it's, I think, at least what I'm saying, David, you tell me if it's different. I think this is an issue of mischaracterizing a true important ethical theory and practice rational egoism and just like capitalism, objectivity, egoism, all the key justice, like why we could have a whole session on why social justice is not justice. Why would we do, why would, why would we do that? Because justice is so important. We don't want it contaminated by these, um, path, what, what our colleague Jason Hill calls idea pathogens, <laugh>. But what's inter, what's interesting about narcissism is narcissism is an actual li real psychological, it's in the, it's in the handbooks, it's a disorder.
Speaker 2 01:19:42 They, they do call it a disorder. They don't call it orderly or proper. And, uh, I don't know. That's my best argument, Scott, that we're trying to distinguish and therefore defend and promote. It's an opportunity to promote, Hey, here's a better way. Uh, narcissism is not rational legalism, but most people don't know what rational legalism is. Here's our chance, here's a wonderful chance, convey it. And, and as I said before in the elevator pitch argument, I think most people know what narcissism is and, uh, feel uncomfortable with it and don't like it, but they don't know what our position is. Is that, is that fair, David? Or would you put it differently?
Speaker 3 01:20:23 Yeah, I would just maybe though, um, you know, people who are card carrying altruists or who are implicitly influenced by that, um, moral standard, uh, which most people in society are, um, will tend to, uh, misidentify what is and is not egoistic, and they will, there are a number of myths about it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you, you've written a whole essay on that. I, among the ones I would mention is that, um, I mean, one is that I egoists have to be self-centered. Narcissists, they veined, et cetera. Yeah. Another one is that they're exploit exploitative rapacious. Yeah. How hungry, or another one altogether is that egoists are materialistic. They're only concerned with money, sex, possessions. Um, they don't have any spiritual life. And all of those are myths about Yeah. Um, egoism misrepresentations that come out of a, um, distorted, you know, sense of what, um, egoism and altruism are. So I think there's, there is some kind of motivation here, or maybe just a misconception. Um,
Speaker 2 01:21:43 And also relevant Dave, at the concept of I Iran calling it the package deal, so that someone says, um, yeah, oh, I hear you guys are egoists over you. Objectives are egoists. Oh, well, well, who's this Donald Trump character? I mean, that's a, what was that, an Iran character? And if so, <laugh>, if so, if so, objectivism sucks because ju Donald Trump suck. I'm not saying they're that crude about it, but that, that's the, that's the risk you run. You're, you run the risk of jamming all these things together into one package, and they're incommensurable. And that's why I think David and I focus so much. Also, the more we studied this on the issue of this is not an issue quantitative, but qualitative. This is a difference to na narcissism versus ego. This, the difference not of, uh, of, uh, number, but kind, not of degree, but of kind fundamentally different, not belonging in the same package.
Speaker 0 01:22:41 All right. Well, uh, let's go to Clark. Clark.
Speaker 12 01:22:46 Yes. Uh, thank you. Uh, thank you David and Richard for this very, very interesting presentation. Uh, I just have kind of a tangential point about, about Donald Trump. Uh, I've always viewed him as a 76 year old white rapper, and all that entails, I mean, most of his supporters, when you think about it, are, are kind of lower middle class, you know, white males who, you know, who are constantly told they're racist, <laugh>, you know, they're making $40,000 a year. And, uh, I mean, they don't understand that the antidote to all the heavy woke is, is ideas, fundamental ideas. But, but you know, again, we live in an anti ideas society. So, so they don't see that. So, you know, they, they gravitate toward this narcissist like Trump. So I suppose in a better world, you know, where, where people actually read, uh, the, the, you know, the critiques of post-modernism that, you know, professor Hicks is written on, and, and even, you know, uh, Kelly, you know, professors Kelly and Salzman just in, in the Atlas society alone, we have all the ideas to completely demolish all this woke.
Speaker 12 01:23:57 But obviously, you know, in America today, millions of people don't think, you know, they think ideas are some kind of a, a liberal social construct. And so they, they gravitate to this, you know, someone like Trump. And, uh, I mean, I guess it's, it can't be all bad. I mean, they, they really aren't racist. Millions of Americans really aren't racist, but, but they're called this every day. So, you know, they don't know how to, what the antidote is, the real antidote idea is, so they're just gravitated to this, to this Donald Trump guy. And, and that's why he, I think was so successful.
Speaker 2 01:24:32 Uh, one, just, uh, you make a good point, and if what you're saying is that there's a plausibility to an, an, uh, defense of Trump, if, and I think there's some to the Americans, like a self-confident unvarnished, uh, achiever here, here, a real estate developer puts his names right on the buildings. I remember him asked one time, why do you put your names on the buildings? And he said, cuz I built them. And that people love that. And I think objectives should say the good part of Donald Trump is people are seeing achievement and they're seeing unabashed, unapologetic. Now, the, the part where it veers off into narcissism, of course we would get off the train, but, uh, let's not say the guy is a complete narcissist. It's a, seems a mixture of narcissism and genuinely earned. He's only earned self-esteem. I heard someone make a distinction once, which is very interesting.
Speaker 2 01:25:31 They said, uh, they did not anticipate the, uh, the, the chattering class. They did not anticipate Trump's, um, following and success because they took him literally, but not seriously. And the electorate who voted for him took him serious, uh, took him literally, but not took him, uh, seriously, but not literally. So the first could not believe that he would possibly be, um, electable, but the ones who voted for him, you know, know, didn't take him. Literally. Every single silly thing he said took literally, but they took him seriously. They knew what parts of him, what meant what he said. And, uh, that, that might be an important distinction, is that what you're getting at Clark, that there's, there's something in Trump that's genuine and that people respond to. It's not, you know, fake narcissism all the way through.
Speaker 12 01:26:23 Right, right. In other words, uh, the, a lot of his voters, of course, were in a better world, I guess, you know, maybe he wouldn't be nearly as big as he is now. But of course, we, we don't live yet in that better world because all this woke, all this political correctness and, and yet the, the, the masses that support him, you know, they, they don't think they're racist that well, they know they're not. And yet, you know, they see someone like Trump who never apologizes. I mean, I guess he started, you know, you, I can't even imagine a kinder, gentler Trump. I mean, <laugh>, I mean, it's like a contradiction in terms. And so instead of being attracted to, you know, real ideas that show, you know, that all this woke is really <laugh>, you know, invalid, they just latch onto this, this, you know, kind of, I, I see your point too. I mean, he is in some ways genuinely egoistic, you know, not really rationally egoistic, but but so that, yeah, so there's, it's not all bad. Obviously it's not all good, but, but it's not all bad either.
Speaker 2 01:27:30 Good. Thank, thank you Clark. And it,
Speaker 3 01:27:32 When he speaks to the woke people, it's in your face
Speaker 13 01:27:36 <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:27:38 That's, you know, the, I mean, yeah, the pugnacious, uh, combative Trump, uh, as Clark put it, you know, versus the, uh, craven triple apologizing, these people who are appeasing, that's a real contrast. And if part of him is narcissism, they're like, who cares? At least he's fighting back. Um,
Speaker 0 01:28:01 That's what I was gonna ask. At a certain point of the establishment getting corrupt, does he Yeah. Almost take a certain amount of narcissism, uh,
Speaker 13 01:28:10 To <laugh> <laugh>, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:28:14 Almost enjoy
Speaker 2 01:28:15 It. Well, what what's interesting about him is if we're right about the narcissist, if the literature's right about the narcissist, they actually care too much about what other people think. And that does not seem true of Trump, although we might eventually see that, um, you know, that he's becomes dispirited himself and less energetic on the campaign trail and all that kind of thing when his support with wither if and when his support withers. So that'll be revealed. I mean, when, put it this way also, why did they kick kick 'em off Twitter? You know, the, the idea about misinformation and stuff I think was wrong, but it's almost as if Twitter under Jack Dorsey knew that this guy so craved attention and he did have more followers than anyone else on Twitter. Right. That, that would really crush him. That, that he, if you took his voice away and his followers, you know, so it's, so, it's as if Twitter said, we know this guy's a narcissist. We know what fuels him as this, so let's take away his fuel. And we do hear stories behind the scenes of him being kind of isolated down in, uh, Mar-a-Lago and, uh, not getting the energy that he would from daily tweeting, daily combativeness with, uh, the media rallies, all those kind of things. They energize him.
Speaker 0 01:29:39 Right. Well, um, this has been a great session, David. I'm glad we got your sound going early. Um, we, uh, I just wanted to mention real quickly, we've got some big events next week, uh, next Wednesday across all our channels. Um, Steven Hicks and Robert t Zinsky will be talking about the philosophy of history at 5:00 PM Eastern. And then, uh, one week from today, Richard will be back here on Clubhouse at 6:00 PM Eastern with an ask Me Anything. Looking forward to that. Again, uh, thanks to everyone who participated and joined us and to David and Richard and, uh, we'll see you again next week.
Speaker 2 01:30:19 Thank you, Scott. Thank you, David. Thank you all. Thanks Richard. Scott, everyone.
