Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Okay, well, um, has people are filtering in? I want to welcome everyone. I see Dale, um, to our clubhouse today with Robert Rosinski, he's chosen, uh, a topical topic, capitalism and Christmas. Um, want to remind people that we are going to be recording so that we can put this up on our podcast platform. Um, and, uh, and we also just had our, a senior scholar professor, Stephen Hicks, popping into the room. Um, so we will, uh, we'd love to get your questions or comments, but I'm going to let Rob start us off by telling us a bit about the topic.
Speaker 1 00:00:45 Yeah. All right. So, um, as you know, there's a sort of killed patrol out there that is, um, always on the lookout for any sign that somebody is having fun and enjoying themselves and, um, you know, making the most out of life. And they've got to find a way to, to put a damper on that. And they're this time a year, their usual way of doing that is to complain about Christmas and Christmas is too commercial and, and people are buying too many things that they're spending too much. And, you know, th they're they're missing the true spirit of the season. So, uh, the usual complaint about how about Christmas, if coming from both sides from the, from the, from the religious people on the right and from the sort of anti-capitalist left is that Christmas is too commercial. So what I want to share here is, um, Mo I don't know if Jen, if there's a way to put this out on a chat for clubhouse, but I also just referred to it on Twitter in response to the law announcement for this meeting, a great article that was published last year, about this time last year in the wall street journal, but Jason's wife called how capitalism saved Christmas.
Speaker 1 00:01:50 And it's a great overview of sort of putting the, giving the historical facts that, that refute some of these claims about Christmas being, being too commercial. Basically arguing that Christmas, as we know, and enjoy it today is very much a product of capital. Uh, it emerged from the industrial revolution, from the growth of commerce from the, from the development of the department store, right? It had that because you, you, you went and you go window shopping and you go shopping and you buy gifts. It was because of all the goods pouring out of the factories and into the department stores in, in urban centers. And that was really what fueled the growth of Christmas as, as we celebrate it in any recognizable form today. So the, some interesting little details from that history, some of them, which I had known before, and some of which was new to me, some interesting details I wanted to pull out.
Speaker 1 00:02:38 Uh, one of the points that he makes is that before, uh, really the, the 19th century Christmas was a period of rebels, a disorder and, and, uh, um, uh, sort of re mobs going around carousing in the streets in a very disorderly and, and, and, um, uh, disrespect unrespectable, uh, and actually because of this for a while under the Puritans, now this goes against the sort of the religious claim that Jesus is the reason for the season under the Puritans in Massachusetts for a while, uh, celebrating Christmas, even taking the day off was banned, and you could be fined for it. So that gives sort of puts to rest the idea of this, of a uniquely Christian origin for Christmas as we celebrate it today. Um, and you could see sort of leftovers of this, uh, if you've seen songs like there's one a, here we come, a wassailing right.
Speaker 1 00:03:34 A wassailing was basically a roving band would come around. This is the primitive origin of caroling, uh, and the less pleasant origin of Caroline is a roving band would come around and they would say outside of your house, and basically demand alcohol, the demand beer, uh, and that was, you know, wassailing, I was there, here become a wassailing and we're coming to your door to sing at you and shout at you and make noise and demand, uh, to be, um, given strong drink as a week. So we could, uh, uh, basically be, get drunk, uh, on Christmas. Uh, you can also see it in the, in the song. Uh, we wish you a Merry Christmas there's that line about how, uh, they'll bring out some Figgy pudding and, and you'll notice that in the lyrics, the, the singers get increasingly insistent that they say, we won't go until we've got some, and it gets a little ominous there.
Speaker 1 00:04:21 And that also dates back to these early revels where, you know, they came door to door singing, and you better bring out something for them to drink and something for them to eat, uh, or, or you might be in trouble. All right. So this is the rowdier origin of Christmas. And really that starts to, it's only in the 19th century after the industrial revolution, as, uh, as, as the country becomes more commercial as the growth of commerce and retail and department stores that Christmas begins to take on its more respectable sort of middle-class orderly version, and also a version that is centered around the family and around, uh, giving gifts to friends and family. Uh, one of the key turning points is clemency Seymour writing. Uh, I think it's called the visit from Saint Nicholas is the title is the official title. Of course, we all know it as you know, towards the night before Christmas, he writes that poem and that, uh, sort of supercharges this idea of, you know, Santa Claus coming down the chimney and bringing gifts to the family.
Speaker 1 00:05:26 And it becoming much more of a middle-class family oriented, uh, uh, uh, holiday that's about giving gifts to the people you love. Uh, now the hip part of history here that is not covered in this wall street journal article that I'm recommending, uh, again, it's called how capitalism saved Christmas. The part that that, that isn't covered there is really the later history of how we got to the anti commercialism of Chris that, that, that comes into the Christmas season. And I think the pattern here has to, as usual capitalism achieves something amazing. And then the intellectuals come along to explain, quote, unquote, explain what capitalism did, which means it means ends up, meaning they bad mouth capitalism and blame capitals of everything goes bad while taking for granted all the good things that accomplished. And I think that's sort of my explanation, deeper explanation behind Charles Dickens and a Christmas Carol.
Speaker 1 00:06:23 So this is about 2025 years after clemency more, uh, night before Christmas, uh, in the 1840s, Dickens comes along and writes a Christmas Carol and in line with his sort of generally anticapitalist outlook. Uh, he sort of increases character, screw, choose this caricature of everything that's bad about capitalism and commerce. And he shows it shows commerce. He really sets up this idea of, of the man of commerce, the man of business being grumpy and misanthropic, and opposed to, uh, the celebration of Christmas and opposed to the spirit of the holiday. And, you know, the funny thing is this is sort of like around the same time as Dickens, you know, Karl Marx is coming along and capitalism is producing all these amazing things, his amazing growth in, in wealth, in the standard of living, building bridges and, and, and, and railroads and all of these amazing things.
Speaker 1 00:07:16 And he comes around and says, oh, this is all terrible. We have to get rid of it. As certificates has basically, you know, in the middle of cap, uh, Christmas as this rising holiday fueled by the industrial revolution, fueled by commerce fueled by the first, the opening of the first department stores. And again says, oh, this is all terrible. It's all over commercialized. And we need to, uh, we need to turn against the men of business and portray them as the villains. And that's a theme that starts with him and sort of continues. Um, my other sort of thing I love to hate is the, uh, the movie it's a wonderful life, the old Jimmy Stewart movie, this remember that, that one it's, it's another Christmas classic. That's actually really quite horrible when you think about it, because the essence of it is you got this character, George Bailey, um, you've got this character, George Bailey, who, um, uh, you know, the basic setup is at every point throughout the story, he has to sacrifice himself for the good of somebody else.
Speaker 1 00:08:16 And it basically, it's a story about how it's okay for the small town you live in to crush your dreams for your entire life. And then at the end, you should accept that and be grateful for it. So it's this real downer of a message, uh, as a, an, a real sort of hardcore altruist message, um, as, as a Christmas classic and that's from the forties, and then even so even when I was a kid, the big classic that came along was Charlie, the Charlie brown Christmas. And I found, I've watched that recently and, uh, saw that parts of it recently, and really didn't like it, cause it's just, it's a lot of lecturing and hectoring, uh, Linus spends the whole thing complaining about how commercialized Christmases. So you see how this, this drum beat of Christmases to commercial, um, uh, keeps getting pounded into us now in an interesting detail from the wall street journal article is that some of this came from, uh, a society started in the early 20th century, I think, or late 19th, early 20th century.
Speaker 1 00:09:14 I can't remember the exact date, but it was started by JP Morgan's daughter, uh, talking about how Christmas had become too commercial. People were spending money unnecessarily on all these gifts. So they should, uh, devote themselves to the service of others. And it just struck me as something out of Atlas, shrugged, where you have, I mean, this is JP Morgan's daughter. You go get wealthier, you know, a greater wealth and privilege than that. So it's very much out of Atlas, shrugged, the sort of super wealthy person who takes, who, who, who, who clan claim. They don't care about money or material things because they've always had plenty of it. Uh, and this sort of condescension of JP Morgan's daughter telling us we're too commercial and we're spending too much money. Um, and, but now in the modern version, though, you get, of course, that that sort of firms from the left, the anti commercialism of the left, the anti-capitalism of the left, and the more recent version you're going to get is you're going to get the Christian saying, oh, well, this is right.
Speaker 1 00:10:10 It's that Christian holiday. And then we'll plan about the war on Christmas. And they say, we should be focused on their religious meeting of it. So when it comes to that, I want to also point out that Christianity did kind of steal Christmas. Now, obviously the name Christ mass, you know, is a Christian name, but what the, why is it on December 25th? Why does it have the form this holiday of the form? It has? Well, it has that form from, uh, Christians coming along and basically stealing or borrowing existing pig and holidays and incorporating all those traditions, then trying to give them a Christian, meaning this is a process that's called syncretism. You know, it's the Greek or Latin root meaning trying to bring things together. And this is the pain pattern that Christianity used a lot in an ER and its early spread is they would come along and say, well, look, you know, you've got some existing pagan tradition and existing pagan gods, existing pig and heroes rather than fight that we're going to allow you to keep having those things.
Speaker 1 00:11:12 So we try to make you give up these festivals and these holidays, people are going to hate us. So rather than make them give up those things, we're going to take it over and give, will let you have that holiday, but we'll give it a Christian meaning. So for example, Easter, uh, even the name Easter comes from, um, Astra. I think if it's Prowse correctly, which is a, uh, like a S uh, a Germanic goddess of spring, it was a spring festival, a pagan spring festival celebrated by the Germans and the Christians came along and they kept the name. They kept the celebration, they kept the holiday and it's there to celebrate the return of spring. The snow's melting and the grass, the trees and everything is growing again. And you're celebrating that. But then they said, okay, we're going to attach it to a Christian meaning, uh, having to do with the story of Christ.
Speaker 1 00:12:02 And they did something similar with Christmas. Christmas is really the Saturnalia festival. Uh, that happens what happens around today. It happens around December 21st. It's celebrating the solstice. The fact that the days have been getting shorter and shorter and shorter. And now we're at the point where they're going to start getting longer. Again, that's something to celebrate. So there's always been solstice festivals, um, historically, and, you know, uh, among all pagan groups, uh, the recent Romans celebrated their solstice festivals. The Roman one was called Saturnalia and, uh, the Christians, you know, there's no reason to think Christ was born on December 21st, 25th. Um, none of that, I think actually that may have even been taken from Mithra ism, which was a previous preexisting Roman religion. Um, and so what they did is, is glommed on to that. So while we're going to, we don't know when Christ was born, we're going to say it wasn't the 25th, so that we could take this Saturnalia festival that everybody loves, and we can give it a Christian meaning.
Speaker 1 00:13:01 So for the people who want to say Chris, you know, Christmas is really about Christ and Christianity yes. In the immediate, in the term, in the, in the lot for the last several centuries. Yes. But its original origins, you know, everybody's always had a solstice festival, winter solstice festival and its ultimate origins were, uh, were pagan. And I particularly liked the solstice cause it, uh, I think it's also a good scientific, uh, astronomical, uh, mile marker, uh, to be something to celebrate. Uh, so that's what I sort of wanted to set up as the, the context for the real actual relationship between capitalism and Christmas and between commercialism and Christmas and a good opportunity to just throw a little shade at, at, uh, Frank Capra and Charles Dickens for their contributions, uh, uh, uh, on their, on their Christmas stories.
Speaker 0 00:13:56 Well, I don't know if I completely agree with you about it's a wonderful life. I think in, in some sense it also is the story of the power of individualism and George Bailey, um, finding out what would happen if he had never been there. Um, of course he had a savings alone. So, um, you know, he wasn't a social worker and you know, he, uh, he also was able to make a choice on rational choice between the short-term pleasure of going off on his honeymoon versus, you know, what he was going to come back to, which would have been a completely changed town. So I think there's a possibility of having, having a debate on some of these topics. Um, I want to, uh, to recognize a few people that are with us today, um, professor Hicks, as I mentioned, uh, Dell bottoms, Nina, you see some other donors here. So, um, please raise your hand if you have a question for Rob and a question about Christmas question about objectivism question about capitalism and we will get to them. So, uh, Rob, maybe you could also talk a little bit about how I'm Rand viewed Christmas,
Speaker 1 00:15:22 Right? She, she actually wrote an article about celebrating Christmas as a, uh, as a capitalist and an atheist. Um, and the big thing she said was that, uh, the big thing that stands out to me as, as her basic message was, you know, she said, we say Merry Christmas, not weep and repent. Uh, so I think it's, you know, the idea is that the emphasis on Christmas was very much about the enjoyment of life. I mean, you think about, I mean, this is the, this is the, all the original sort of pagan origin of it is, uh, it's the winter. And one of among other things happens with winter is first of all, most people don't have a lot to do or right about now because in an agrarian society, you know, the crops are all in, you can't plant any new crops yet for, for the spring.
Speaker 1 00:16:03 So this is sort of an idle downtime, but it's also a time. And it's also a time when it gets especially dark and cold and you need some sort of celebration or revelry to lift everyone's spirits. Um, and to, uh, to sort of keep up your spirits over the coldest darkest part of the winter, but you're also celebrating the fact that the coldest and darkest part, or at least the darkest part, uh, is over because, you know, the, this days get longer every day after this. Uh, so, uh, it really is, has, you know, in his earliest origins, it was a solid, it was a, basically a celebration of life and in its 19th century, uh, incarnation did sort of the way Christmas was formed into its modern form in the 19th century and early 20th century. It was very much about specifically about celebrating the home and the family and, uh, you know, basically making a see, seeing the enjoyment of your kids as they get this cornucopia of gifts, uh, underneath the tree. So it's very much about celebrating prosperity and celebrating love, uh, for love for the people that are closest to you
Speaker 0 00:17:15 And benevolence. I mean, she, she talked about, um, that this was, it was a benevolent, you were wishing the Goodwill towards men, uh, was a sense of benevolence of wanting, uh, other people's good fortune and seeing them, you know, as, as potential friends partners. So I think that's, um, a sense that
Speaker 1 00:17:43 Another little detail, by the way, from Jason's wives article, it says, he says, I don't know if this is true, but it, I hope it's true, which as he says that originally Merry Christmas, the word Mary meant drunk. And so, uh, he points out that, that it was actually in clemency more and come and see Morris poem night before Christmas, he says it has happy Christmas. And that was like a change from Mary to happy. Now, of course, that meeting has been lost when we go back, we've gone back to Merry Christmas, but another little lie. Uh, but it's definitely, you know, it's, it's the holiday, that's about happiness and about sharing happiness with other people. Well, Merry Christmas, Roger.
Speaker 2 00:18:25 Yeah, no, thanks. I, um, I was excited to get the ping in here. Uh, interesting topic. Um, the one area where, uh, th that prevents me from, uh, diving headfirst into the objectivist pool is the philosophy around, um, uh, like a rejection of faith. Um, I, I think that, you know, I, I don't need to get into a debate about the place that faith, uh, has in my life and so many others, but I, I, um, I was glad to hear, um, you know, the, the recognition that there's a utility in having a holiday, um, that, uh, spreads good cheer, and you don't need to be a Christian to participate. And in fact, uh, you know, th the historical lessons that Christmas itself was, you know, was borrowed from, uh, you know, from other traditions. And so, uh, we can take the best, uh, of, of everything.
Speaker 2 00:19:23 I try to take the best aspects of objectivism and put them into my life, uh, and apply them in a way that, uh, that makes my life more meaningful. And I think the most specific part of that is, um, the idea that, uh, that pursuing happiness is virtuous. And the idea that, uh, you know, that, that working against your own self-interest is, uh, you know, is both immoral and irrational. And I agree with that. Um, but, uh, but I, I was just, I was very interested in hearing, uh, the perspective, uh, th that, that would be put forward on celebrating Christmas and embracing things like capitalism. Uh, and, and the last thing that I would just, uh, you know, kind of finish with as a question is when, when we look at this holiday and we, we see the gift giving component, uh, some people would say that, you know, the, the giving gifts is this act of like selflessness.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 I actually think it's quite different. Um, you know, and, and, uh, I don't know if Rob meant it this way, but when, when, when I heard him say, you know, the joy of watching the open presence, uh, there is a self-interest in that it makes us feel good to give. And so I think gift giving, uh, especially when it's not done with coercion, like on holidays, such as like Valentine's day, uh, you know, w w when a desire to want to give gifts, uh, there is a definitely a self-interest component to that that people play down. And I think we should own that more. And my question, uh, to, to, to Rob or to, uh, if he was on the stage too, is just, uh, to ask the question, should we promote the virtue of selfishness and how that applies to Christmas, rather than making consumerism this bad thing and promote how good it feels to be able to give and the feeling that it gives it leaves with us.
Speaker 1 00:21:25 Yeah, I would say more broadly that, um, I put this on the perspective of talking about self-interest and love that love is self-interested. In fact, it's the reflection of self-interest, um, uh, it's, this is something that even before Iran goes back to Aristotle we're in, uh, it is that common, key and ethics. He has a whole session where he addresses the question should one loved one self or another most. And he makes the point that, um, that you, you know, your love for a friend, uh, he talks about friendship. Mostly your love for a friend would be, is an extension of your love for yourself. If you didn't love yourself, you wouldn't be able to love the, share the values that you share with your friend. You know, he said a friend is another self, so therefore you wouldn't be able to love your friend if he didn't love you, if you didn't first love yourself.
Speaker 1 00:22:14 So he's the first one to sort of come up with the idea behind Iran's phrase. Uh, was it in order to say, I love you what must learn first, how to say the eye, um, and the idea that there isn't a conflict between love and self-interest. And yes, the thing is that, you know, human beings, um, everything proceeds from an understanding of human nature, human beings are, are complex, uh, mentally complex beings and therefore psychologically complex beings. And we have this whole suite of psychological needs that flow from the complexity of our brains and the, you know, the needs of our, of our cognition. And one of those needs is it needs for companionship and for friendship. And that includes, of course, you know, uh, includes, you know, your, your, the friends that you choose. It also includes your family. Um, uh, and, uh, and especially the, you know, the nuclear family, the, the wife and the kids and all of that.
Speaker 1 00:23:08 And so I really see Christian Christmas, especially as an extension of that idea of, of value and love for family. And one thing said, you know, talking about the, um, talking about selfish gift giving or self-interest to gift giving one sort of thing I try to do in giving gifts. That's something I sort of teach my kids as a way of giving gifts is that you search for the shared interest that you have with someone that you, you try to find, if you, you're trying to pick a gift for someone, you pick something that you're interested in, and they're also interested in where you have this thing. I found this really interesting, and I think you would find it interesting too. And it sort of emphasizes this idea of that, the shared values and the, that, that, that, that there was Chilean point about the friend is another self that, that, that you look for the values that the things you enjoy in common, the values you share with someone else, and you sort of put your gift, organize your gift, giving around that. And I like to use that as much as possible as a sort of criterion for the gifts I choose for people that, that, and, and, and half the time when I, you know, when I give, when I give my kids books, it's, I want to steal them and read them myself, Steven,
Speaker 3 00:24:33 Hi, Jennifer, thanks for that, Rob. I'm wondering if you run across, if you have any thoughts on the Christians, I might say small movement who are also against Christmas, so to speak, to put Christ back in Christmas version of Christianity, as opposed by these other Christians and the kinds of arguments they make are that, well, uh, December 25th, wasn't really the date of Jesus' birthday. So they take seriously the historical argument. So in the interest of getting Christianity, right, we shouldn't be celebrating on that day, or they will, uh, point out that in the Bible, Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday. And this is really seem like anybody celebrates their birthday. So celebrating one's birthday is a little bit egocentric and focused on the self. So we shouldn't be doing that even in the case of Jesus. So if you run across that sec,
Speaker 1 00:25:27 I know there are more puritanical sex of Christians who are against celebrating Christmas. And like I said, even the original Puritans in new England, uh, apparently had a ban on celebrating Christmas for awhile. Um, and I think that, uh, that's not very common though today. And I think what's more common is the sort of modern religious conservative who wants to have it both ways. They want to have Christmas, and they wouldn't have all the pleasant things about Christmas and all the celebration and all the, all the secular parts of Christmas, including all the, uh, all the Christmas, all the best Christmas songs, all the best Christmas songs was written by Jews. Um, it really is true. There's like all the, all the, like most, uh, probably a majority of the classic Christmas songs from like the thirties, forties, fifties, uh, were, were written by Jewish songwriters because of course that was a huge market.
Speaker 1 00:26:20 Uh, so, you know, you have these guys sitting around, there's a famous story about, you know, melter man and some other guy sitting by, uh, a hotel pool in Miami, in the middle of July, writing the Christmas song, you, the chestnuts roasting on an open fire thing, uh, because, you know, you want to have a big song for Christmas. You got to start writing it in July. Uh, but, um, you know, so they want to take all these sort of secular aspects of Christmas and all the things that people enjoy and love about Christmas. And then they want to try to have that and, but make sure that insists that it be connected to the Christian meaning. And I think it's similar to what the point Jennifer raised about. It's a wonderful life where it's a wonderful life is a very, the point you make about there's an aspect of individuals into it.
Speaker 1 00:27:05 And I think that's not accidental. Um, that's sort of summarized spent, it's a Frank Capra movie. So he is the embodiment of sort of mid 20th century liberalism old-fashioned 20th century liberalism, sort of FDR era liberalism. And, uh, it was very much this idea of this combination of an element of enjoyment of individuals and altruism. So trying to combine those two together. And so you get that at both sides that they try to take the things people love about Christmas, and then combine them with their own message of, um, uh, you know, hardcore, uh, or whole message of, of altruism in the case of, um, uh, sort of secular altruism in the case of Frank Capra or religious altruism in the case of today's Christians. And then of course, you know, it all gets wrapped. Now these days, of course, it all gets wrapped into the culture war and a Fox news has to invent a war on Christmas every year, whether it's happening or not.
Speaker 3 00:28:07 Yeah. If I could follow up on that. Yeah. Like your connection to the Puritans. And I think I joined in the conversation just at the tail end or when you were first mentioning the Puritans. So, uh, but I wonder if partly this is a, of a psychological divide among Christians or, uh, or maybe it's a more sociological thing as well, but, uh, there are, there was a streak of Christianity for whom all of this benevolence and Goodwill among men is just not where they are religiously for them. Life really is a kind of grim puritanical set of duties. So Christmas just strikes them as an alien holiday. And so they're, uh, they're resisting it, uh, maybe on sense of life grounds, but to, uh, conjoining that with this sense that, you know, we have to get the historical facts as well, but really it's, it's driven by just, that's not what Christianity is. It's not about fun and celebration and so on. It's something darker and more duty oriented.
Speaker 1 00:29:06 Yeah. I've run a series of articles a while back. Um, so, so I'm still sort of working on them at a very slow pace called an atheist, reads the Bible. And it's looking through, you know, starting with the old Testament and working through. And one of the things I wrote about there was the concept of a covenant. This is a sort of a, a dual aspect of the Christian religion going all the way back to the old Testament and to the various covenants made between God and the Israelites. And those covenants tend to, so the one I started with is the covenant is the story of Abraham and Isaac. This is where Abraham is told to bring his, you know, he's waited all this long time to have a son and Aaron. He finally has a son and heir and there's Isaac and he's told, and then God, God says to him, Tom, take Isaac to the, to the mountain, top to this altar.
Speaker 1 00:29:53 And he's supposed to sacrifice his son, uh, humans engaged in human sacrifice, uh, kill his son as a sacrifice to God. And of course, when he gets to the top, and he's just about to plunge the knife in God stops him and says, no, you know, here's, here's a, um, here's a lamb sacrifice that instead. And there's all sorts of functions that serves in the narrative, but one of them is this idea that the double edge of the covenant of the Christian of the Judeo-Christian covenant is on the one hand, you have to be willing to sacrifice everything, including the things that are most precious to you, to God. And then the other, the other half of it is that if you, uh, are willing to sacrifice, God may not make you actually do it. And it said what he does after, you know, after Abraham has proved his loyalty by being willing to sacrifice his son, God makes a promise to him.
Speaker 1 00:30:45 I will make you wealthy and prosperous. And you, you know, your, your, uh, descendants will become a great people and a great nation on the earth. So it's this double edge of you have to be willing to sacrifice everything, but in return, he promises you prosperity and happiness and success. And that's been sort of the dual character of the Judeo-Christian tradition from the very, very beginning, uh, you know, from Abraham is the beginning of that tradition. Uh, so it's, and then Chris, Chris later Christians come along and they get to sort of go on the spectrum of which half of the covenant do they like to emphasize, did they like to emphasize the prosperity part? And so you get, you know, um, uh, you get the, uh, natural religion ideas of the founding fathers, which was very much emphasizing the, if you follow the right moral rules, you will get prosperity.
Speaker 1 00:31:33 And your, our goal is to, is to go forth and multiply, be fruitful and multiply and, and become prosperous. And the modern version of that would be sort of the Joel Osteen prosperity gospel types, uh, who tell you how to live your best life now. Uh, and then there are the Christians who are very much in the opposite end. So little anecdote from there is that, um, there was an article recently is in response to all the COVID stuff, but article and the Federalists, I used to write for the Federalist, uh, but our article by joy, Pohlman, who's one of the people there basically talking about how we shouldn't try to take precautions against COVID because death is good and we should all want, you know, as good Christians, we should all welcome death. And it says horribly grim sort of death cult kind of thing.
Speaker 1 00:32:17 And I, I know joy, so I know that that's sort of her, that's still totally her interpretation of Christianity, you know, and the funny thing is she once told me privately that she thought objectivism, the philosophy of objectivism and the objective morality was too harsh. And she has the harshest bleakest version of Christianity. You could possibly imagine hurt is the thing she advocates. So, like I said, there's that spectrum of you can emphasize the total sacrifice part of Christianity of the Judeo-Christian tradition, or you can emphasize the be fruitful and multiply. I shall make you a great nation, you know, the prosperity gospel sort of aspect of Christianity and people get to decide where are they, where they go on that, on that spectrum.
Speaker 0 00:33:00 Rob, what would you say to, uh, to people like Roger and to many others that we, you know, meet them at our conferences, who, um, who are very attracted to find a lot of utility, uh, in many aspects of objectivism, or just more specifically are really, um, inspired by rans, uh, fictional literature, but feel that they're not welcome, or maybe, you know, Roger, I don't want to mischaracterize how you see it. Um, or that, that it's a stumbling block for them. I've I wrote about this in my wall street journal op-ed can you love God? And I ran and I first came to the Atlas society. I was amazed by, um, how many, you know, really devout Christians and Catholics like Andy poster. Who's this first, uh, speaker at our gala, um, had, uh, required each of his six children to, to read, um, the fountain head before he allowed them to get their, their driver's permit. Um, or Randy Wallace who wrote a magnificent screenplay of, uh, about a shrug. Um, but he's a devout Baptist and, uh, they just didn't see any contradiction between it, but, you know, they weren't necessarily deep students of objectivism. So either, you know, Steven or,
Speaker 1 00:34:29 Well, let me comment on that a couple of times. Uh, well, it goes back to what I was saying is about the, the Abrahamic covenant is that I think people who don't see any clash between religion and objectivism have to have to grapple with that Abrahamic covenant. And the fact that sacrifice is the idea of total sacrifice for your religion is a crucial central part of the Judeo-Christian tradition back to the beginning. So that's something that's not going to be consistent with objectivism, and you have to square those. On the other hand, the big thing, I, uh, a big thing I've sort of gotten into in the last five years or so, I was turned onto this originally by a friend of mine named pat Mullins. Who's a professor of history who, uh, first he wrote a very good book about a guy named Jonathan Mayhew who was, uh, he would have been one of the great founding fathers if he had lived, he died in 1765.
Speaker 1 00:35:22 So it would be four at the very beginning of the conflicts between that, that led to the revolution. Um, but he was hugely influential on a lot of the founding fathers. And from there, from reading about Jonathan May, who I sort of explored a little bit, the whole field of what's called natural religion. And it's because the thing about Jonathan May, who is you read a bunch of his sermons that he did. And he was, he was a preacher, he's a Christian preacher. And he was teaching what he saw as the proper Christian morality, but it's this total enlightenment morality that is, uh, all based on the idea that God, basically God loves us and wants us to be happy. And so we should use our natural faculty of reason to exercise our private, independent, private judgment, and make the decisions that will lead to our greatest happiness.
Speaker 1 00:36:10 And, you know, he talks like she talks about rational, happiness being the goal of the Christian morality. So he hits it herself like a proto objectivist philosopher. And, uh, this was part of this whole, uh, school called natural religion. And it goes partly back to, uh, John Locke wrote an essay called on the reasonableness of Christianity. And so it's this very enlightenment version of Christianity. That's very, has a strong emphasis on reason and on following reason on, on, on reason, literally being the voice of God within us, the ideas God gave us the faculty of reason, therefore he must've intended us to use it. And so therefore if you follow a reason, you are following the will of God. Um, so it's heavy emphasis, a reason, heavy emphasis on individual judgment because of that, an emphasis on the idea that, you know, again, that other half of the Abrahamic covenant, which is that you're supposed to go out and, and be fruitful and multiply and to prosper and to enjoy your life. So there is that very strong tradition in Christianity, its soul survives. Uh, that is the other part of that, of the, of the Abrahamic covenant, which is pro life pro enjoyment part.
Speaker 0 00:37:29 Steven, did you have anything to add to that? Otherwise I'm going to bring a cup of people.
Speaker 3 00:37:36 No, I don't want to go to deep dive into a history of Christianity and all the variations. So Rob's outline was nice.
Speaker 2 00:37:47 Can I just say, uh, real quick, uh, I'll be brief. Is it, uh, a lot of people aren't necessarily deeply, uh, uh, steeped or, uh, clinging to, uh, the entire origin story of where God came from, but a more deeply held belief is just that the universe was created. And therefore there's a belief that God and where I find myself in problematic conversations is not when people arrive at a different conclusion that God doesn't exist is that when people arrive at a conclusion, uh, that, that somebody else arriving at their own conclusion based on logic reason, uh, and whatever other system that they might have for, uh, for, for, you know, seeking truth is when it's rejected and when it's mocked. And I don't see that coming from your group. I really don't. Um, I, I follow you guys on Facebook. I also follow, uh, the other, uh, Rand, uh, group.
Speaker 2 00:38:54 Um, and, but it's, it's not the leadership of these organizations and it's not even necessarily in the philosophy and I've read like, uh, Peikoff, uh, books and it, like, I don't see it coming from the leadership, but it's, there's, there's an ugliness of that. That seems to be present among the people that identify as Objectivists, which, which makes it less welcoming for people that have a view. That's just like one or two clicks away from what Rand would've would've, would've would've approved of. And I think that's the idea, uh, that, you know, that kind of keeps me away from like identifying as an objectivist because there just seems to be this dogmatic approach, uh, to certain topics that I don't find helpful. And I almost feel that if, if you have the right people leading those discussions, they would maybe, um, curate those conversations in a more healthy way. And I'm just curious, like why that seems to be so prevalent in these spaces, especially in a space where, um, where logic and reason and, um, you know, and, and respect for individuality is supposed to be a, you know, a prominent theme.
Speaker 1 00:40:17 Yeah. Well, there's, there's always been a bit of a difference in this and that, um, let's put it this way. I, I interviewed George Willow a while back and he describes himself as a low voltage atheist. And I sort of feel that same way too, that, or I would describe myself as an atheist who doesn't have a chip on his shoulder. And that I've noticed that the, uh, I know, I understand why this happens because I noticed that the, my general experience, the most, uh, fanatical and intolerant atheists are people who went to Catholic school, uh, when they were kids. So it's like, they're still trying to get back at the nuns. Um, so they've got a chip on their shoulder because I think if you had religion forced upon you in a dogmatic and intolerant way, when you were young, that you sort of tend to rebel against that.
Speaker 1 00:41:07 Um, I think I'm getting an echo here a little bit hope that somebody means you may need to mute rebel back at that let's mute. But, um, uh, so because of that, I think I'm because I didn't have, I was sort of left to make my own decisions about religion and didn't have a lot of hangups about that, that allow, that gives me sort of the, the, the luxury of being a low voltage atheists, uh, who does it really have a chip on his shoulder about it? Um, so I think that that's, but that's, that's part of the context I try to keep in mind though, is that, you know, there is such a thing as that, you know, there is still a vein in this country, uh, especially, and especially, and, you know, outside of this country and other parts of the world, uh, not in Europe, but in other places where religion is taken much more seriously still.
Speaker 1 00:41:56 And especially in, in other less modernized religions, there is a vein a to heart vein of religious obscurantism and intolerance and where people are still threatened for not believing in a particular religious origin story or what have you. And so I sort of understand where some people are coming from and being more belligerent atheists, uh, because, you know, they're reacting against what was, what was thrown on that. But I try to, I try to be sort of a more health reason people through it. So my attitude is more summed up by a legend, or I don't know if we're really was ever actually happened, but this is the story that's told is I think it was, Laplas one of the great French mathematicians and scientists, physicists, who, who met, um, the Polian and to pull in who fancied himself an intellectual said, oh, I read your book on the solar system.
Speaker 1 00:42:51 And the one thing I noticed is that you do made no mention of the divine creator and Laplas is supposed to have said to him, I have no need for that hypothesis. And that's sort of how I feel about, uh, my atheism is that it's, uh, you know, all the questions that religion is that the belief in God is supposed to answer for other people, the origin of the, of the universe, the origin of man, uh, the orchard of humans, uh, the nature of morality, all the things that they feel they need religion for. I think I've found perfectly reasonable secular explanations or answers for those questions. So I have no need of the hypothesis that a, that of God and that sort of the way I try to sell, sell people on, you know, here's, here's why you shouldn't need it. Also, the other aspect of it too, by the way, is I'm, uh, one of the big influences on me even before I discovered iron round was Carl Sagan series cosmos, uh, the famous television series he did, and he has a goofy notions, but I in rewatching it recently, um, one of the things I noticed about, um, cosmos is one of the continuing themes of it.
Speaker 1 00:44:01 And it's something that came from Sagan's previous work is the idea that science can bring science, that science can also be a source of spiritual, meaning you a sign that the explanations, the science gives of the universe, the explanations it gives a man can also be fulfilling and deep and profound, a spiritual, uh, uh, sort of sources of spiritual meaning. And he actually wrote a book called the, the, uh, uh, the varieties of scientific experience, which was supposed to be sort of an answer to, I think, of William James sort of book called the varieties of religious experience. And so what if Sagan's books was the variety of scientific experience to show that this is, could be that science and, uh, reason can provide their own sort of answers to the big spiritual questions.
Speaker 0 00:44:53 Yeah. And, um, Roger, to your point also about leadership, I think that is important. Um, and our founders, David Kelly, and it's not necessarily that he takes a different view on, you know, the metaphysics or systemology of objectivism being the natural world and our faith as our means of, uh, discovering it. But, um, but you know, his, his work on truth and toleration his book on rugged individualism, it's this idea of benevolence as a self-interested value that, uh, if we have, um, you know, nothing to, to fear, then, you know, we can, we can learn from other people. And, um, so I, I think it's, it's more of that, that it's not a humility that wouldn't be the right word to describe it, but a recognition that, that we have potentially a lot to learn. Um, and we're certainly not going to convince anybody of our point of view if we just kind of lead with this idea that we have all the answers, uh, not a very appealing proposition.
Speaker 1 00:46:11 Yeah. Also my outlook on it is in the context of today's culture wars, as I like to say that my plan for the culture war is that culture wins. You know, the culture should win the culture war. And what I mean by that is that you best, you should measure our success in the culture wars, not by what you destroyed, not by how you can shut somebody down or shut somebody up. You should measure it by what you can create. And by the answers that you can give and by how appealing and convincing you can make your own argument. Uh, so you, you should think of it in terms, not in terms of a negative of, oh, I have to destroy this other person and really come up with the perfect put down that will, that will cause them to slink away in defeat, but in terms of how can I offer the best explanation and the best, uh, most fulfilling, most convincing, most appealing, um, vision for what my answer to, to the big questions is.
Speaker 2 00:47:07 I love that. I love that. Thank you so much. I'm going to move myself back down. Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:47:12 Thanks Roger. Anyone else have a question or a comment for Rob Rosinski thoughts on Christmas, But you are a newcomer to clubhouse.
Speaker 4 00:47:40 Yes. And when you come on out Blake, just to thank you guys, I've been hearing your discussions and that's great. I'm new here, and that's why I've been on Ms. Then some of the things here.
Speaker 0 00:47:55 Great. And, uh, Terrific. Well welcome.
Speaker 4 00:48:05 Thank you. I'm Greg dude. Have you already a friends
Speaker 1 00:48:13 Hope
Speaker 0 00:48:16 Rob. So, Yes.
Speaker 1 00:48:21 Yeah. We've talked about this with the Atlas society before that, um, you know, the, the sort of global reach of things of having, I know we have some people here who are involved in society as a society that outlasts, uh, the Latin American version of it. I mean, it's one of the great advantages of the internet era is, you know, we can reach out to a lot of places that, uh, uh, would have been hard to people would have been hard to reach replaces. It would have been hard to get the message to, and, uh, without the technology we have today, I really love the idea of expanding the scope of the people you can talk to.
Speaker 0 00:49:01 Yeah. And, and I think that, um, having an open and welcoming attitude towards people, um, who are religious or Christian, or what have you, um, and then also making room for, you know, even if you're an atheist, you can also enjoy, uh, being a part of a religious community. I, you know, sing in my temples choir and, uh, frequently go to Hubud and, um, nobody bothers me.
Speaker 1 00:49:30 Okay. So that's, there is a long tradition of the sec of, of, of, of the secular Jew. Um, I mean, that's sort of like almost an American cliche, right? The, the, the guy who goes, I went to college, what's your budget guys who basically were go off at temple all the time. And I said, you believe in God, they say, oh, no. Um, but you know, I, I did the same thing that a pre pandemic, we were regulars in the, um, south Plains Presbyterian, uh, Christmas, Carolyn, uh, troop. And it's because I wanted to have my kids have the experience of going around caroling and, uh, my dad. So we would go to my dad's church and we do that. Um, so yeah, there's, uh, I think, uh, there's no, I guess that comes from being the low voltage atheist who doesn't have a chip on his shoulder. And, you know, I associate religion with my grandparents were, you know, total salt of the earth, people who I really loved and admired. So, um, I think though, I, I recognize that there are people who had a less happy experience and that there is, there are more fanatical and obscurantist and less pleasant versions of, uh, of Christianity and of religion in general, that, that people have to confront and deal with.
Speaker 0 00:50:45 Alan is here.
Speaker 5 00:50:48 I just saw your message. I just logged on. So, um, I'm afraid I'm late to the conversation. I can only add, I guess you're going, I'm assuming you're going to end it too. I'll just add quickly that I think the best take when you're talking about Christmas is a religious holiday and capitalism is if you've never seen it, the TV show south park, they're a regional pilot that they use to get the show, uh, has Santa Claus and Jesus fighting in a death match over. Who's going to control Christmas. And in the end, the two of them make up and they say, and the moral is well, the, the, the, the, um, commercialization of Christmas helps keep the meaning of Christmas alive and vice versa. And that the, the, the, the holiday wouldn't exist without the religious, the commercialization couldn't happen. If there wasn't a real holiday behind it. So it's, it's a really funny video. And
Speaker 1 00:52:08 I think that's it that I'd never want river great self-park watcher, but I've heard about that one.
Speaker 5 00:52:13 Yeah. I'm not either, but I think I've seen a few things from it, but yeah.
Speaker 1 00:52:21 And rejoinder that I could commercialize the heck out of Saturnalia. So, you know, I don't think we need to Jesus for that.
Speaker 5 00:52:27 Yeah. But, uh, I'll, I'll just, I'll just add that to the conversation and, and quit and leave it at that.
Speaker 0 00:52:40 I had no idea, Allan, and that's a great, that's a great, fine. I'll check it out. Lawrence. Our editor is here.
Speaker 6 00:52:51 Yes. Hello. Thank you for having me, uh,
Speaker 0 00:52:54 Celebrating his holiday in Texas.
Speaker 6 00:52:57 Yes, indeed. It's wonderful. 60 degrees. Um, what I was gonna ask you, uh, Robert was, uh, so today's the 21st solstice day, shortest day of the year. Uh, some people hold up say it's the death of the sun day. So to speak along more pagan audiences. And the reason I bring that up is because I've been noticing an interesting discussion. That's suddenly come up in recent days among your more Christian saying this is Christian holiday and all that stuff. And then pagan people, which I don't know how many of them there are, but they certainly seem vocal all of a sudden, and they're talking about their own ownership of this time of year and such. And there seems to be this at least online, the scuffle between the two over these particular days, interested to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 1 00:53:47 Yeah. There, there is a weird sort of Neo pagan thing going on right now, but it's very, very small. Uh, um, I think there's some Neo, uh, like Odin worshipers in Scandinavia and things like that. Um, really what, because the thing is that you can't, you society can't go backwards, intellectual. You can't go having gone from paganism to Christianity. You can't just go back to paganism. You go on to secularism. Uh, and I think that's primarily what's happened. There is that just, uh, I think came out today, somebody was touting it, that there was a new pew survey that shows that the, uh, for the first time, the number of atheists and agnostics or the number of people who are atheist agnostic or described that as of us having no particular religious belief, that group together outnumber the number of evangelical Christians in the country.
Speaker 1 00:54:34 And that's actually, that's a new thing. It's like if there's a large, larger group than it used to be, uh, just five, 10 years ago. And so I think what we are, we're, we're grappling with the fact of there's the whole context for this and the war on Christmas and the FA you know, Fox news getting worked up about the war on Christmas every year, and people talking about commercialization, et cetera. What we're grappling with is that we are in fact becoming a more secular society, that religious belief, Christian traditional Christian religious belief is fading and a atheism or a, you know, like I said, no, no, nothing in particular as the largest group, people who have no particular religious belief, that group is graphically growing. And so we're going to have to sort of grapple with, well, what is the meaning of a holiday, like Christmas that had original Christian meaning. And, um, now, you know, we're, now that we're all secular, what do we do with that? And how do we find a new, how do we find a different meaning in it that doesn't, isn't dependent on necessarily on that, on that, uh, the Christian overlay that was put on it for the last 2000 years.
Speaker 6 00:55:42 Interesting. Thank
Speaker 1 00:55:43 You. Yeah, no, I think I want to put it on top of here. Cause I think Jennifer's probably about to plug, uh, what I'm going to doing next week. Now next week for the clubhouse, I'm going to be doing the top stories of the year and the plug I want to put in here as I'm counting these dots, it's something I do every year with my newsletter, the letter. And you can go at dot com, got to get the plugin. I touched turned my writing martyrs card in if I don't plug by subsect newsletter. Um, but I'm counting it down right now in the middle of counting down. What were the top stories, top five stories of the last year that I've as I've covered them and as I've observed them in my, in my newsletter. And, uh, so next week, I'm going to be talking about that and sort of, you know, the end of the year, looking at what were the big five big things that happened in politics and in the culture over the last, over 2021.
Speaker 0 00:56:34 Excellent. And, um, then we also have our next clubhouse is Thursday with our founder, David Kelly. He's going to be talking about objectivism and the arc of life, uh, which is, uh, something he's been working on in his, uh, objectivist workshop. And, um, we also have, um, professor Stephen Hicks, his course on capitalism session. Number six is, uh, coming up that is tomorrow. So I want to encourage all of you to check out the Atlas society website, go to the events section, you'll see everything that we have coming up. And, um, thanks, Rob. This was a great conversation.
Speaker 1 00:57:23 I really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming.
Speaker 0 00:57:25 All right. I'll see you guys next time. Oh, and join me tomorrow on the Atlas society asks, I'm going to be doing a live webinar with Alex Kozinski. He presided over the ninth circuit court of appeals for, uh, decades. And, um, as a, has had some interesting experiences with objectivism, which we'll talk about. So see you then.
