Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Okay, it is the top of the hour, so I'll just go ahead and do a, a brief primer as we are still waiting for Larry to, uh, join us here. So, hello everyone. Welcome to the Atlas Society's Tuesday happy hour. I'm Lawrence Olivo. I'm normally joined by Scott Schiff. Uh, he's currently not on the call, trying to help our, our, uh, special guest for today's clubhouse, uh, Dr. Larry Gold. And we're gonna be having a conversation about his time in academia and climate change. And we are hoping to invite people up to ask questions. Get in on the discussion. Larry, great of you to join us. Uh, if you want to unmute yourself, you should see in the bottom right hand corner of the screen a little microphone. Nope. There you
Speaker 1 00:00:48 Go. How's that? How's that?
Speaker 0 00:00:50 Yep. You're coming through loud and clear.
Speaker 1 00:00:52 Good. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:00:54 Great. Well, uh, thanks for joining. Um, we want to, uh, talk about, you know, both education and climate change. Just wanted to start out with a little bit of your background and, uh, you know, your, uh, tenure through, uh, the, through academia over the years, and maybe some observations is what's changed.
Speaker 1 00:01:16 Okay. Well, um, so I am now emeritus professor of physics. I was teaching as a professor of physics at the University of Hartford. Uh, I started out there like 30 years ago. Um, and, uh, I was assistant professor, then I got promoted to associate, then I co got promoted to full professor. And, uh, and then I left <laugh>. I mean, after being full professor for a number of years, like since the, like 90 fours, I was full professor and I left a couple of years ago. That is when I say I left. I mean, that, um, I applied for and got emeritus status, which means that I'm still associated with the university. I can use a inter-library loan, which I do. And, um, I can park anywhere on campus, uh, which I, which I couldn't when I was a full professor. So that's my, so that's my situation in terms of my, my position. And, uh, now I'm, uh, heavily involved in my own research. Um, I finished one paper, I'm almost finished with another. And, um, in terms, do you wanna know anything about my, this climate change, my climate change association?
Speaker 2 00:02:37 Yeah, I, I wanna get to that, but, you know, I mean, just like, with, just to start with education a little bit, um, the, uh, you know, a Dershowitz said, you know, that one thing that's changed over the years is these student reviews, which made teachers kind of need student acceptance more. I mean, did that have an impact on, on how, how we could academia's changed over the years and
Speaker 1 00:03:03 Well, um, you know, students vary or people vary, but what I found is that, um, uh, although there are some, some really top students, there are also problems with, uh, some other students like wanting to get something for which, which they don't deserve. There was some cheating on exams, but as I say, you know, I wouldn't say all students are like that. There are three students in in particular that I could mention because I wrote them major letter for them, and they get, they got a scholarship to Oxford University. So there's, uh, there's a place, um, called Hartford College. It's pronounced Hartford, but it's spelled H E R t F O R D at Oxford. And, uh, and I, we also had enough money then I, I was able to visit those students. So I've had some superb students, but, um, there are, there are problems, uh, generally speaking. Um, I, I think, uh, the, the students aren't as good overall as they were when I first started teaching there.
Speaker 0 00:04:15 Now, um, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1 00:04:18 Is it, is that the, is that what you wanted to, uh, is that what you are interested in? My views about that?
Speaker 0 00:04:25 Yeah, I think, we'll, there's a lot to, uh, cover and I do want to sort of follow along with this sort of, uh, topic of education that you brought up. And of course, we'll also wanna hear, uh, sort of I Rand's story, but just on this topic of education, <laugh>, one thing that is, uh, interesting is you are coming in from academia, you are in the hard sciences, uh, when looking up in sort of your background, mathematical physics and such. And considering like someone like myself, I'm relatively recent graduate, it's been a couple years, but I was in the liberal arts where the, uh, quality of the students, you could, you could tell, uh, some people really weren't giving it there all, there was a lot more of the sort of, uh, woke ideology that was pervasive in that part of academia, at least for the student. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:05:17 Okay.
Speaker 0 00:05:18 And I'm curious to see if it's the same that you were seeing in them wore hard science field, because we've heard about it, but,
Speaker 1 00:05:25 Um, well, um, a actually, go ahead. I, um, I was a member of the faculty Senate. Okay. That's like a main governing body in the university. And I also, um, uh, so I, I went to faculty senate meetings and, uh, I also went to College of Arts and Science meetings. And, uh, if there was something that, uh, I found, um, that was in need of criticism, I opened my mouth. Okay. Uh, I don't think I was that <laugh>. I wasn't, I, I wasn't probably very appreciated. Um, maybe, uh, when I opened my mouth on certain topics, like, um, issues of credit for, uh, gender or, um, uh, or, or, or race, uh, I, I opened my mouth about that. And, um, well, that was in the, that was in the, uh, arts and science meetings. And, um, uh, unfortunately no one, uh, stood up and said something like, well, I agree with Gould, or, uh, I disagree with Gould. There were no comments. Okay. So if that's what you mean about, um, the non-hard sciences, I mean, that was non-hard because in the sense that, um, in the faculty senate and you, and the arts and sciences, uh, meetings, I mean, there were people from different areas, English philosophy, including the hard sciences, mathematics, physics, biology, so on.
Speaker 2 00:07:12 Yeah. So you were like more the, uh, one guy twisting in the wind trying to say, uh, you know, uh, push back on this. And I think, uh, there's probably a, a small minority of people like that at a lot of different schools. Um, you know, uh, so do you think that, um, you know, are there, uh, policies that, um, you know, proli groups can try to promote to make academia better?
Speaker 1 00:07:47 Um, uh, yeah. There was, there was a group, um, let's see. I was, I was talking to some guy, uh, some student who was in, in charge of, uh, the group. Now, the name, the name escapes me, but it was, um, uh, it, it, it was, it was, uh, it was, I think they tended to be cons, conservative types. And, um, this, this person told me, uh, that, uh, they don't have an advisor. And he says he tried to get one of the faculty members to be their advisor, but people, people decline. So I said, I'll be your advisor if you want <laugh>. I, I told him that, um, you should understand, however, that, because I knew it was a conservative group that, um, uh, I'm not a believer in God, you know, and, uh, and, uh, I, I speak my mind about things. And he said, that's fine, <laugh>. So I said, okay, then I'll be your advisor. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:08:53 Great. And how was that experience? Just, uh, if you don't mind me asking, I'm curious.
Speaker 1 00:08:57 You know, it was, it was fine. Um, th there was a, there was a meeting, um, where I, and, uh, and someone else who was an economist were invited to talk about the issue of so-called climate change. And we did. And, uh, there was a, there was a good showing. Okay. Um, so, uh, I, I actually, uh, haven't engaged in, uh, debating, uh, people at the university and climate change, although, uh, I was invited to give talks in a couple of classes. And, um, and I also gave, um, I gave a course a critical thinking approach to climate change. I gave it three times, actually, while I was at the university. The first time. There was a little flack in getting it accepted, uh, but it went through the second time there was a little less flack. And the third time there was no flack at all.
Speaker 2 00:10:00 That's good. Um, now you have, uh, you know, we've recently seen some examples of people pushing back, uh, university of Boston and, and more recently, um, Marcia Enw Wright announced, uh, reliance College.
Speaker 1 00:10:16 Right. Can
Speaker 2 00:10:17 You talk about that endeavor?
Speaker 1 00:10:19 Um, well, I'm, uh, I'm on a board of Advi on the Board of Advisors. And, um, I th uh, and one, the reason for that is, um, well, I was, I was invited, but also, um, I think that Reliance College is, uh, a very good, uh, undertaking because it, it promotes, uh, self-reliance. And I think the college is well named, and that includes critical thinking. So the viewpoint there is that, um, or at least one of the major viewpoints is that, uh, students and that vessels into which you pour knowledge, uh, they, they're supposed to have active minds and, um, have a critical point of view regarding what it is that the teacher or the professor, uh, tells them. And I'm all in favor of that. Um, <laugh>, uh, so, so it, it will be starting up in about a year, and it has a website, reliance college.org, if anyone's interested.
Speaker 1 00:11:29 I just went to it like about a half hour ago, just to check it. And, uh, you can see the ideas behind the formation of the college. And Marsha Enw Wright is, uh, is a superb, uh, leader of the college. Uh, one reason I know is because, uh, on Thursdays I usually take, uh, what's called the Great Connections Zoom meeting with Marsha and some other people. And I've, uh, I've had an understanding, which I haven't had for years, about some of the really great connections, um, readings from, uh, ancient Rome readings from the founders of the united, uh, of the American government, Madison, uh, Montesquieu, and so on. So, even though I'm in the hard sciences, uh, I'm not stuck, so to speak, in the hard sciences. And, uh, and, uh, I, I go back quite a ways, um, with, uh, objectivism way back, uh, to, uh, the time of, uh, Iran. So I met her. Um,
Speaker 2 00:12:43 And when did you meet her?
Speaker 1 00:12:45 Well, there was this course, um, um, see, after I graduated from college, I asked my cousin if she, if she know, knew any, um, any American philosophers, because I was always interested in philosophy. And she said, well, there's this a Rand. So I said, who was a Rand? She said she didn't know. So, uh, when I was in a bookstore at that time, I came a, a book by the Brandons called, who was Iran. And I said, well, I better buy it. So I bought it, and I started reading. Then I, I read everything I can get my hands on <laugh> about her and I, and then I went to the, uh, to the n b lecturers, which started out, uh, didn't start out the Empire State Building, but they went to the Empire State Building. And, um, I remember I asked a question, uh, and the, uh, one of the ushers said that, uh, Ms.
Speaker 1 00:13:42 Ran would like to talk with you. So I said, okay. Uh, and she was sitting, uh, in a chair surrounded by a bunch of empty chairs. And I went over and we chatted. Okay. And I don't remember just what the conversation was about. I remember the one point she got angry, and, and I, and I said, oh, um, you mean just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true. And she brightened up <laugh>. Okay. So, uh, and then the, the other, so that was one of the, um, meetings with her. The other meeting with her was based on, um, was, was based on the Vietnam War indirectly. And what happened is that, um, I dunno, are you interested in this?
Speaker 2 00:14:31 Oh, absolutely. So the first meeting was probably 67, and then this next meeting was what, maybe a couple years later?
Speaker 1 00:14:40 Yeah. Well, I, uh, I don't remember just when, um, the epistemology workshop, uh, took place in New York, but I was involved in that. The reason I was involved in that is because, um, I happened to get a job at a place called Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, which is now part of New York University. And I was at some point the, the chief programmer for the registrar's office. And my point is I, is that I had to get grades out on time. So I was, um, I would come in whenever I wanted to and to run off the grade. So I got 'em in on time. And then I would also be taking graduate courses in physics. And, um, this was during the sixties, and at some point there was, uh, kind of a shutdown of the school. Uh, there were faculty members, there were students in the halls.
Speaker 1 00:15:33 They were blocking, uh, people's easy access to classes. My, uh, my graduate course in, on classical mechanics was, was canceled because the professor was afraid of, um, students fighting with each other. I don't know. Anyway, um, the, the guy who was teaching philosophy, uh, at the time was Leonard Poff <laugh>. Okay. And, um, and, uh, Poff and another student, and I, and, and some others, uh, decided that, um, we would counter this movement of shutting down the university. So we created this organization, which is called stop, that was the acronym, S t O P. And it stood for students to oppose the push at Poly <laugh> and, uh, stop with two PS s well, s st S t O P, you know, to, to oppose the push at Poly. And, uh, then there was a big meeting. I won't go through all the details. Um, people may want to hear some other things.
Speaker 1 00:16:36 Uh, but there was a big meeting, and there, there were student groups on stage, and there were faculty in, uh, in the audience, and students in the audience. And some of the faculty may, uh, some of the faculty gave, uh, talks. Uh, some of them say, what's wrong with, uh, interfering with students' education? And one of those faculty members was poff. Okay. And he sat down. Then there was a, the person who was in charge of the meeting said, well, okay, can we have representatives from the students group? So there was a guy from, uh, the black students, there were some other students, the undergraduate students, and then there was a call for, what about the graduate students that looked around? No one <laugh>, no one was raising their hand. So I raised my hand and pka pointed to me and said, he's, he's the representative from the graduate students.
Speaker 1 00:17:30 So I, I got up there and I told him, you know, why it's wrong, what you guys are doing. Um, the people are closing the school. Anyway, the school got, um, basically reopened. Things went back to normal. Someone set fire to the R O T C building, I guess, um, I guess it wasn't put out. I didn't follow that. But, uh, anything, anyway, things got, things got back to normal. And it's bec, the reason I mentioned that is because I think it's because of that, this is just my, my speculation because of that, that, uh, when I asked Poff, um, can I attend the objectives, the epistemology workshop? He said, yes. Okay. So, um, you were his
Speaker 2 00:18:17 Beacon of bravery,
Speaker 1 00:18:19 Huh?
Speaker 2 00:18:19 You were his beacon of bravery standing up for no other graduate
Speaker 1 00:18:23 Students would. Well, that's possible. But, um, anyway, there were a, a, there are a bunch of people there, and that epi, there are, the epistemology workshop is written up, uh, at least parts of it, and it's in a book, uh, which leads off with the Rand's epistemology, then it goes, goes into the epistemology workshop, and there are these various, uh, character's, prophe, prof B and so on for the people who are interested. I'm Prof, m <laugh>, M as in Mary. I'm the guy who was asking her about issues of, of induction. Okay. And that runs, uh, that runs on about a page or so. So, um, so that's, that's my, uh, that's my association with, so to speak, official Objectiveism. Other than the fact that, of course, I'm, uh, I'm an eager member of the Atlas Society. And, um, uh, I have been, uh, reading David Kelly's evidence of the Senses, uh, a number of times, actually spoke with him several times about it. And, um, the first time I read it, I, I really couldn't understand much. Now I have a pretty good grasp of it. And I met David back when he was a PhD student, uh, at Princeton University. Okay. So there was some other people there who were interested in Objectiveism. David was one of them.
Speaker 2 00:19:54 Okay. David, any, uh, follow up from, uh, <laugh> that time?
Speaker 1 00:20:01 Well, I knew, I knew a number of people, um, uh, around in the sixties. Um, I knew, I knew Alan, uh, got health. Um, I knew Biner, Harry Biner, um, and, and some other people. I took a course with Alan, actually. He gave a course on, uh, on ethics. I forget the name of the book that we read. Um, I think Rand was included, but there were other philosophers as well. L
Speaker 2 00:20:34 It's fascinating that, uh, you were bringing up induction, which is kind of the, you know, one area that I think even the, um, Orthodox agree was kind of incomplete.
Speaker 1 00:20:47 Well, she did too. <laugh>, if you, if anyone goes to read it, um, uh, I asked a question near the end of our, our conversation, uh, well, when is, when is there enough evidence, uh, to claim that, uh, that the theory is a good theory? That's a, it, uh, captures, uh, something about the universe. And she said, uh, basically, uh, she doesn't know the answer, answer to that. She said, it's a good question, but she hasn't studied that, that topic. So, um, I, I tend to take the, um, from what I've read, I tend to take, uh, David Kelly's, uh, I ideas about how one, um, how one comes to, uh, generalize about, about some things. Um, and I've, I've got some of it from his evidence of the senses. I've got some of it from his theory of abstraction. And, um, and I'm putting, I'm putting together my own, uh, paper that I hope to get published at some point. And it has to do with philosophy of science. So I think in order to do philosophy of science, um, want, you know, something about the history of science, which I'm pretty passionate about, as well as, uh, something about the hard sciences, which I've been in and continue to be in.
Speaker 2 00:22:20 Great. Well, we, uh, I don't wanna monopolize, uh, the questions. We wanna welcome people up here, but I I've got others. Lawrence, go ahead.
Speaker 0 00:22:29 Yeah. Uh, just real quick, David, I don't know if you've been trying to, uh, chime in, but if that's the case, we aren't able to hear you. You might wanna try leaving the room and coming back, or maybe disconnecting any Bluetooth, but I did see, I saw you that you unmuted there. So, uh, while we, for that, uh, I kind of wanna circle back to something you mentioned earlier, Larry, when you were talking about Reliance College. And while I am optimistic for, I think one of the big obstacles for Reliance College or any academic institution nowadays is just how prepared are the kids gonna be coming in? I remember when I first started at college, one of the mandatory courses we had to take was, I guess, essentially how to be a college student, which was, to me, real basic principles. Like, you should write notes while you're in class. <laugh>, here's how to write an essay, here's how a PowerPoint should be made. So, real basic stuff that it, people struggled with, and I was shocked by it. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts on that? I, is this something that Reliance College is prepared for? Or is this sort of like a systemic issue just across the board that needs, uh, some solution?
Speaker 1 00:23:47 Well, about, about the details, I think you'd have to, you'd have to ask Marsha about being prepared for college. I had a terrible time in college, actually. I started out in chemistry, switched to physics, and, um, uh, part of it was, uh, my own lack of self-confidence. But, uh, as, as Objectiveism, uh, teaches people are, they have their own, they can create their own souls. So, um, so although I had my, my, my doubts, I was assured that I was prepared, uh, for a college. I went to a, I went to a technical college. At that time, it was called Carnegie Institute of Technology. I don't know the, I don't know the answer to your question. As I say, um, uh, Mar Marsha Marsha's a good person to ask. And she's been in, in charge of a Montessori Montessori school for many years. And we've also had some readings in this great connections that I mentioned.
Speaker 1 00:24:51 Um, uh, we had readings out of Montessori and generating one's own, um, uh, actions based on one's own interest is an important part of the, of the Montessori method. So you, you don't say to students, well, now we're gonna dump this information into your head and you're gonna spit it back to us on tests. That's not the way it works. If students find, uh, what they're interested in, then they can put their attentions toward that. And I actually, I found a really interesting example of that, um, in between jobs. I was living in Stanford, Connecticut at one point, and I, I was substitute teaching in a high school, and, um, the kids were kind of rowdy. I couldn't, I couldn't keep 'em quiet. And I noticed there was some group that was in the back that was looking at the, uh, electrical equipment. I said, don't, don't touch.
Speaker 1 00:25:51 That stuff may be too d dangerous for you. And, um, they kept doing it. So I went, I went to the back there, and, uh, I said, this could be dangerous. And then that started it because one of them asked why. And I, I, I explained, and then there were more questions. And then I realized, well, there were these other people in the class, um, who I con completely neglect. I just turned around and said, just talk quietly. And I continued with this group. And, um, to my kind of surprise that, uh, when I left, they, they asked me, are you gonna, are you gonna be back? So that was, that was an example of where, uh, students, they, they're motivated by their own interests. And, um, the instructor is a kind of facilitator. And I think that's what I was at that time. So, about, uh, about, uh, kids in general and, uh, schools where they come from, I don't, I don't know the answer. I'm not really that familiar with what's going on in K through 12 and, uh, in high schools. But, um, I suspect that Reliance College will also try and correct some of the problems that, um, the instructors find when, when the kids come in. I don't know how they're gonna, how they select students. Um, again, you'd have to have, you'd have to ask Marsha about that,
Speaker 3 00:27:18 You know, if I, uh, can you hear me now? Yep. You're coming across. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:27:22 Okay, good. I just wanna add, I'll throw in one thought. Uh, I, I began teaching at Vassar College in 1975, after four years of undergraduate, four years of graduate school. So I walked into my first philosophy class as a teacher eight years, almost to the day after I walked into my first philosophy class as a student. And, uh, but when I got my first set of papers, I was shocked in eight. And this Vassar was, you know, it was a pretty good school, but, um, I had to correct so many writing errors, and this is in the early, you know, in the mid seventies. So a lot of this stuff is not new. Um, and of course, I like Larry, I lived through the sixties and with violence on my campus too. And, uh, so, you know, we're, we're kind of war veterans here, <laugh>, um, looking at a new war going on today, but trying to keep it in perspective.
Speaker 3 00:28:28 But I, I will say, you know, one of the great memories I have of in life is when I went to Princeton, uh, as a grad student, um, I was, I figured I'd be completely alone, um, you know, an objective in a highly analytic philosophy department. And, um, pretty soon I met, um, Bob Knapp in mathematics, uh, Larry Gould, who was a friend of Bob's, and came down in physics. I thought, Hey, there's some really smart people here who were objectives. Wow. So, um, Larry, I've always, I've always remembered that and, uh, enjoyed our continuing, uh, conversation. So I'll leave it. I'll just leave it,
Speaker 1 00:29:11 Leave memory. Yeah. I, I remember actually, I remember, um, seeing your thesis in manuscript, and I thought, I can't understand anything <laugh> of this, but, uh, but since it came out, uh, as a book and now, now I have a much better handle on it, and I think it's, I think it's quite, quite valuable. Um, uh, so after, after thinking about it and reading some of your other works, um, it was really helpful. I also remember, yeah, I remember Bob Naapp, uh, he was, he was doing his PhD in math at Princeton, then he was, uh, he was at the Institute for Advance Studies for, I used to come up from Philadelphia. I was doing my graduate work in physics at Temple University at the time. Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 2 00:29:58 Good. Well, uh, just to switch gears a little bit, let's, uh, talk about climate change and your take on it, you know, especially as an objective and, uh, you know, what that, uh, what reaction you've got as a result of your views.
Speaker 1 00:30:15 Okay. Um, I, I should give you a drop of background. Um, I have been in this thing so-called climate change, when it used to be called Global War warming, uh, for about 20 years. Uh, in 2004, I was the chair of the New England section of the American Physical Society. And I was also in, uh, very interested in the American Association of Physics Teachers New England section. So, uh, I first started hearing about global warming at that time, and I said, well, um, I think we should have, uh, different views represented here. So, with the permission of New England section of the American Association Physics teachers, uh, I, I got together a meeting which, uh, was at Pratton Whitney in East Hartford around 2004. And I managed to get, uh, two people from each side of the issue. It wasn't a debate, it was just to present their views so that people could hear the different, uh, the different views.
Speaker 1 00:31:14 And then there was also a q and a. So it was quite, it was quite nice, quite successful, I think. Um, and then, um, at the university, as I mentioned, I, I gave three courses, a critical approach, a critical thinking approach to climate change. It wasn't quite titled that, but, um, I showed films, uh, on both sides. I showed, uh, Al Gore's film An Inconvenient Truth. And then I showed, uh, another film, which some people in England tried to get banned, and it's called the Great Global Warming Swindle, okay, <laugh>. And you had different people, um, scientists from various, uh, various camps, uh, the pro global warming in the, the critical view of the global warming. And, uh, I, I gave a bunch of talks on this. I gave, I, I counted up recently, something like 65 talks over the period of, around 20 years.
Speaker 1 00:32:21 Um, most of them were the United States. Some of them were overseas in, um, in Holland, I remember was one place. And, um, the students seemed to like this, this course, in fact, um, one of them, uh, asked me a question, which made me feel, oh, boy, this, this is a, that's a, this is working. Well, the question was, we wanna know what your view is, <laugh> of global warming. And I said, I'm not telling you <laugh>, I I, I said, the point of the course is that you make up your own opinion. And I provided, uh, you with enough information also that's, uh, uh, at the library and, and online. And, uh, they had to do a turn project at the end. So, um, nevertheless, now that I've left, there is someone, uh, who's teaching, um, who was teaching about, uh, climate change, which I think is teaching incorrect views.
Speaker 1 00:33:25 And when I was, when I was on the faculty Senate, there are these various committees, and one of them was the Energy Environment Committee. So I decided, well, okay, I'll get on there. Maybe I'll get my views heard. Well, there was a problem. The chair of the committee, uh, didn't really want to discuss the issues. So when it came to a faculty senate meeting, I explained to the group at large, here's why I'm resigning from the energy environment, uh, committee. And, uh, I, I went on to another committee. I told the chair of the faculty Senate. But, um, but, uh, this wasn't my idea of university. My idea of university is that you have, uh, you can have people of different views, which you normally do, and there should be an open discussion of it. And, um, there, there wasn't. And in fact, I had, there was an interesting, um, comment by, uh, the chair of the faculty Senate at one point.
Speaker 1 00:34:27 Uh, she was, uh, talking about, uh, dangerous carbon dioxide. And I said, well, okay, the, um, the background level of carbon dioxide is about 400 parts per million by volume. I don't, I won't go into the details of parts per million by volume. Now, when you, when you're speaking or when you're breathing out, you are breathing out not 400 parts per million by volume, but about 20,000 parts per million by volume. Should we stop talking to each other face to face and should change, should change the subject to something else. So, um, what I usually find out, uh, and when I've given talk at meetings of the, the American Physical Society, what I usually find out is, uh, people don't want to, uh, debate the issue. And when I did have finally a debate with someone at some physics meeting, um, uh, one of the guys who, uh, who works in, uh, in climate science, uh, told my, told El Ellen, my wife, uh, that, you know, I, I can't stand this anymore, <laugh>, uh, because it, it wasn't a very, the guy really wasn't addressing the issues, but, okay, it was, it was a debate.
Speaker 1 00:35:52 Now, some of the things that people can ask, uh, regarding the so-called climate change, uh, is, um, when people talk about the, uh, the temperature of the earth is rising, the question that occurred to me recently is, where do you place the thermometer? Why do I ask that question? Well, for, if you take, uh, if you say a person has a temperature, then, uh, you can put the thermometer in their mouth, you can put the thermometer in the ear, you can take radi radiant readings, and you got about the same, about the same reading. But if you ask, well, where do you put the thermometer on earth? You put it in the, in the Sahara, where it's about a hundred degrees Celsius above freezing, or you put it in the Antarctic, which are where it's about 50 degrees below freezing. Now, someone could object, then, rightly, that's not what we mean by the temperature of the Earth, we mean an average.
Speaker 1 00:36:54 Okay? And what they mean and what is projected in, in the mainstream media are two different things. Okay? So, okay, le if you talk about average temperature, you can also, you can also, uh, deal with your opponent's. Uh, objection that, well, we should talk about the average temperature. Now, uh, there's a guy whose name is Dick Linson, who was, uh, in climatology at m I t, and he's given many talks, and one of the things he shows about is about the average temperature. So, um, he looks at, uh, the daily record of temperature over the course of a month in Boston, okay? And it, it average it, it goes up, uh, from low to high, maybe 10 or 15 degrees. Then on this, on this, uh, chart graph, he puts the average temperature of the earth, okay? Which is determined by readings from different monitoring stations around the globe.
Speaker 1 00:38:11 And what you get for, for the average temperature, the range of the average temperature is a thin red line. Okay? Now, that's also something that is usually not presented to people. All you hear about is you only have X years before climate change, disaster has struck. Now, here, here's an issue in, in philosophy and, and, and relates to science. When you say X, what's the value? And the answer is, well, one person has one x, another person has another X. So there really isn't a value, it's kind of arbitrary. Furthermore, to make matters worse, the ex predictions, many of them have, have failed, and there has not been any dangerous, uh, so-called global warming where, you know, the sea levels are going to rise. There's loads and loads of stuff that's out there about contradicting the claims that are given by what is called the I P C C, the Intergovernmental Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
Speaker 1 00:39:28 And it's a un sponsored organization. There is another organiz organization, which people hardly ever know about. And, um, it's been, uh, it's been promoted by the Heartland Institute it, and it's called the N I p ccc, the Non-Governmental International Panel on Climate Change. And it has point by point, uh, cri criticisms of what comes out in the I P C C now, uh, something that might amuse people who are listening. Is that there, there, I'm not, it seems, and I'm not sure of this, but it seems that many people that are involved in promoting, uh, the danger of, uh, climate change, I really don't know much about that. I gave you an example. Okay? I once went to a meeting, there was a, a local politician congressman, and he was introducing someone, um, uh, who he said used to be in wind turbines, but now he's involved in prospecting for natural gas methane.
Speaker 1 00:40:42 Okay? Now, I went up to him afterwards, uh, and I said, um, you are opposed to, uh, carbon dioxide increasing what would happen if we eliminated all of the carbon dioxide on the earth? And he looked at me, I could see he didn't know. I said, what would happen is that you'd kill all the plants and the animals depend on plants. You'd kill all the animals, and, and humans depend on plants, and you kill all humans. And his, his comment was, so, I see you don't believe in global warming. And I said, I don't see any evidence for global warming. And he said, what about the melting of the glaciers? And I, I replied, that's melting of the glaciers. And at that point, I knew I wasn't talking to a thinking human being, at least he wasn't thinking about the issues that we were discussing.
Speaker 1 00:41:41 And so I left. Okay. And, um, I think that people who were out there, um, were listening to this broadcast or not, can ask some simple questions of the, uh, the people who are claiming there's dangerous climate change. And I suspect you'd be surprised of what you find <laugh>. Okay? That is, I think it's, um, you've got a, uh, you, you've got a, a false danger. And, and the other thing is about carbon dioxide. We have, uh, close to a carbon dioxide famine, as, as one of the people who, who's involved with this climate change. That is, plants need the carbon dioxide. There are holes in the bottom of the plants called stomata, where they take in carbon dioxide. And, um, if they don't have enough carbon dioxide, they can't grow as well. Uh, and they, they open this tomato and they're losing water also.
Speaker 1 00:42:58 Okay? So, um, there are simple questions, and the best place I've seen, uh, for dealing with this, uh, including trying to educate kids is called the CO2 Coalition. And you can, anyone who's interested could just, uh, go onto the internet and, and find them. Now, uh, uh, can I say one thing about a really bizarre, bizarre case of, of, um, trying to counter the, uh, climate change if there was such a counter necessary? It, the group is called V H E M T, and it, what it stands for is Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. Okay? And the idea, and this is, this is related to philosophy. Um, the earth is the Earth has a value. And so the V H E M, the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, uh, wants people not to kill themselves, but, um, to stop producing. Okay? And there, there are bumper stickers.
Speaker 1 00:44:12 Uh, one of the bumper stickers says, thank you for not breathing. Now, in conjunction with what I said earlier, um, about the amount of carbon dioxide that humans put out, they might have another bumper sticker titled, thank you for not breathing <laugh>. Okay? But that's the way it is. That's, that is one of the mo bizarre one. And the bizarre aspect of the, the, this, this movement is that the earth is a value in itself. So if you get humans off the earth, then you can have a nice ecologically sound earth Well, they're, they're confused about, I think an issue in ethics here that is the earth for them seems to be an intrinsic value. Values are not, intrinsic value is something which one acts the gain or keep. Okay? People have values, for example. And so, uh, if something is good for me, something is bad for me, that that doesn't say anything about an intrinsic value of anything. Okay. So I think they're confused philosophically.
Speaker 2 00:45:29 Yeah, it's good you tie it back to Rand's, uh, view on values. You know, I, I mean, I think that guy betrayed himself by saying, you know, about believing in global warming and the fact that there are religious aspects to it. I'm curious because, you know, they tell us, uh, and I P C C was involved in Climategate as well, uh, when they were conspiring to silence people with, uh, opposing views. You know, they tell us that there's only, you know, 3% of people in academia that, that question, uh, climate change. And I mean, are you part of that 3%, or is it really a lot more like that guy at m i t and they're just not counting him? And
Speaker 1 00:46:12 I, I, I have to question your assumption, um, that there is 3%,
Speaker 2 00:46:17 Right? No. This is what, uh, the, the mainstream, the pro climate change people.
Speaker 1 00:46:22 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:22 Right? Right. This part of their, you know, we've already won kind of, uh, narrative.
Speaker 1 00:46:27 Well, um, uh, I, uh, these people are promoted largely by the mainstream media, and I have a problem with the mainstream media. Part of it is what, uh, the things they're saying, some of the things they're saying are not true. The other part of it, I think, has to do with education. That is, uh, I don't think they're actually investigating the other side. Maybe because their bosses don't want to hear the other side. Maybe they think it won't sell fa papers. Uh, if you tell someone that there's not a danger, and you have someone else who says there is a danger, and it's soon and you better take action, I think maybe the editors think that, uh, the danger is what sells newspapers, but the stuff <laugh>, the, the stuff that says there's no danger, doesn't,
Speaker 2 00:47:25 That's good. Uh, you talked about, uh, you know, mentoring over the years, um, and I'm, I'm sure that's terribly rewarding. Um, but is is, is that process still relatively uncorrupted that people coming to you or genuinely want the help? They're not, you know, trying to like, find an excuse to call people colonizers, or,
Speaker 1 00:47:49 Uh, are are you talking about in academia
Speaker 2 00:47:52 Or Yeah, in academia.
Speaker 1 00:47:54 Well, in academia, um, I had, I had research students and, um, some were in more, more technical, uh, areas, mathematical physics. And, uh, there were some others though, having to do with, um, then it was called global warming. And, um, we tried to get stuff on Wikipedia, and, uh, this stuff was, uh, immediately taken down. Okay. And, uh, I asked this student, uh, once, um, uh, so you share my views about, uh, the critique of this global warming. He says, I don't care about your views. He says, I did my own research to find out what I think <laugh>. And I thought, oh, isn't that wonderful? I wish I could have more like that <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:48:48 Sure.
Speaker 1 00:48:48 Uh, so I don't know, does, I don't know if that answers your, your question, but that, that's some of the mentoring that I was involved in.
Speaker 2 00:48:58 That's good. No, that does, go ahead, Lawrence.
Speaker 0 00:49:02 Yeah. Uh, we're coming down here to the last, uh, seven minutes. So if anyone has questions, I do want to encourage you to raise your hand. We'll bring you up. Um, one thing that I think is interesting that you mentioned earlier is, you know, there is a lot of what I would just say is nihilism. A lot of people who are around my age, these young adults, when you talk to them, there is this sense of, oh, I'm not gonna have kids. The world's going, going to hell, and everything's gonna terrible. The the world's gonna cook and everything. So th this does seem to be a very pervasive mindset, um, that needs education to sort of switch around. But this isn't just in the realm of academia, because we see that these principles are being implemented by governments. Um, I remember just towards the end of last year, uh, uh, the Biden ad administration, uh, John Kerry was saying, we need to get rid of coal, oil and gas because, uh, solar and wind are less expensive. So there is this much larger political movement that's actively trying to, uh, uh, make the choice for us whether or not we want to switch over to quote unquote renewables. And I'm curious if you have, uh, done a lot of study in that area as well, because it just seems like it's, it's across the board. If
Speaker 1 00:50:28 One of the talks that I gave was to the National Science Teachers Association Group, uh, that's involved with physics education, and that was back in 2011. Now, um, the day after I gave, it's around Halloween time, the day after I gave the talk, there was a widespread blackout in, in my area in Connecticut. And the reason for the blackout was that the trees hadn't been trimmed back enough, and they were falling on power lines. And so that, uh, that wasn't due to global warming, that was due to incompetence. Okay. And, um, what one could do about, uh, the, the counters of the politicians is just stating things the way one sees them. And, and in a nice way without, without ad hominems, you know? And, uh, and they're gonna be people who really don't give a damn, and they're gonna, people, there'll be people who might say, gee, I hadn't thought about that <laugh>, and actually go about thinking about it. So, um, the way, the way to defeat, uh, the, these type of politicians who wanna make your life miserable, uh, even though they may not think that okay, is, uh, to engage in, uh, or try and try and engage in conversations like the Atlas Society is doing, like Reliance College will be doing.
Speaker 2 00:52:11 Great. Uh, Abby, do you have a question?
Speaker 4 00:52:15 Yeah, I guess, um, I was wondering to what extent, uh, you know, on this topic of climate change, I definitely think, I know people who are nihilistic, as Lawrence said, and who just really feel that things are going downhill and they think the earth has this intrinsic value. But I also think from our government officials, we see a little bit of, uh, they're able to gain a lot of control from this through the regulations that they can put in place. You know, they wanna put emission standards and move towards electric vehicles, which, you know, they say can go as far as you want, but that's, we know that that's not true. And they have, it seems that, you know, this could really offer them an opportunity to more control, you know, how far you can travel, where you can travel, when you can travel, you know, just increasing the cost of travel in terms of, you know, the, the price of gas going up and just making it kind of difficult for people to move. Um, you know, we also see, you know, in places overseas where they're starting to put on, you know, further regulations on farmers. Just wondering if you have any thoughts on if there, um, other motives maybe from the top down for some of this climate change?
Speaker 1 00:53:13 Yeah. Uh, it's a good question. Um, what people don't, uh, often hear about is that the, the global warmers, uh, they're, they're starting to lose, they'll lose ground. And the reason they're starting to lose ground is because of the consequences of their policies. So you have, um, for example, our oil prices have gone up. You have people in, in England who, um, who have to pay higher electric bills and is going to be, it, it's particularly severe for the people who have, uh, low salaries. The reason is they spend, spend a certain percentage of their salary on heating and a certain amount of their salary on food. Now, if their electricity goes up, they're gonna have to make a decision, am I going to eat less and stay warm or freeze and eat more? I mean, that's, that's sort of a, a me, that's a dramatic way of putting it.
Speaker 1 00:54:27 But things are happening also in larger companies, uh, where their electricity bills are getting too high and they can't afford to stay in the country, which is causing them to be high, so they'll move to other countries. So that's something that one can, uh, one can read about. I'm not saying you're going to get it in the New York Times, but, um, you can read about it on, on Web, uh, that the, the people who have been pushing dangerous, global warming, dangerous climate change, uh, they're, they're losing, not, not because people necessarily understand the science, but because people understand their pocketbooks. And that includes, that includes industry. So that's an unfortunate, that is unfortunate. And, uh, I think it's tied into the education system where people, if they are more, if they are more interested, more critical thinkers, they could say, well, this is garbage. And so, um, they could, they could challenge it in their own mind, and they could challenge it in public, you know, if people have time and, and they go to, um, uh, public meetings.
Speaker 1 00:55:41 And then it will be interesting to see what the, the people who are advocating, uh, dangerous climate change. We'll have to say to some of the questions that are asked. Uh, uh, I know it's happened in, in my cases, but I, I've, I've had a background about, you know, like 20 years in this stuff. And I think that even, even with, uh, a smaller background and, and much less knowledge, people can ask embarrassing questions. And once you do that, then other people see, hey, this guy who's on stage, he doesn't know what he's talking about, <laugh>. And, uh, I've, I've had that experience once when our, our town was promoting solar panels and, and, uh, the guy who was presenting the solar panels was, was not very happy about my questions. And I got an email from, uh, uh, someone who, or organized the, the solar panel information group, and, and he's, his email said, I would appreciate it if you do not come to any more of our meetings. So I thought, well, that's great. I knew the a assist, I knew the, as assistant mayor at the time, and I told her, and she told the mayor and <laugh> and the mayor said, I've spoken to this guy, he's not gonna, he's not gonna do that again. So that's, that's just an example. I'm, I'm not a, uh, I'm not waving a red flag going out around trying to find all the meetings I can, but occasionally things come up and, uh, I put my 2 cents in.
Speaker 2 00:57:23 Sure. Well, this has been great. Uh, thank you so much, uh, for joining us. Uh, again, uh, Dr. Larry Gold, uh, Lawrence, uh, you've got some, uh, upcoming events for us.
Speaker 0 00:57:38 Yes, I do. Uh, again, thank you everyone for joining us today. We do these happy hours every Tuesday at 4:00 PM Eastern to 5:00 PM if you like, what was going on today. Then you should be interested in our other events this week. Uh, tomorrow we're gonna have our interview, the Atlas Society Ask where our C e o Jennifer Grossman will be interviewing Joshua Mitchell. He's a journalist and author of The Debt Trap, how Student Loans Became a National Catastrophe. So it should be an interesting conversation there. And then on Thursday, we'll be back on Clubhouse at 3:00 PM Pacific, 6:00 PM Eastern, and this will be with our founder David Kelly and our senior scholar, uh, Dr. Richard Salzman. They'll be doing a ask us anything for 90 minutes so you can get your questions asked on politics, economics, philosophy, the works. Larry, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure to get your insights on everything. Is there anything else you wanna leave us with before we close out?
Speaker 1 00:58:49 Um, well, uh, I hadn't, I hadn't thought of that. I, I would say don't be afraid, but I don't think the people are listening to this broadcast anyway are afraid. So maybe that's redundant or unnecessary.
Speaker 2 00:59:06 <laugh>, it's a good spirit. I really liked your anecdotes with, uh, E Rand as well. So, uh, great. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see everybody next time. It's
Speaker 0 00:59:17 Take care, everyone.
Speaker 1 00:59:18 Bye.
